Who 'killed' Sauron

Yazad · 12-20-2002, 02:01 PM

Hiya everyone!

This is probably an old topic and probably more suitable in the books section, but since it's been interpreted in both films this way, I figure it's good hear. I didn't find the old argument if there is one - could someone point me in the right direction.

Okay, it's always been my interpretation that Gil-Galad and Elendil slew Sauron at the end of the 2nd age. This is supported by Gandalf's account in "Shadow of the Past" and also in one passage in "On the Rings of Power and the Third Age" (?) in The Silmarillion. Especially in the Silmarillion it's represented in a classic Beowulf way - Sauron came out and wrestled with Gil-Galad and Elendil and they were slain, but so was Sauron (my reading of it). *And then* Isildur came along, vulture like, and sawed the ring of Sauron's hand. Damn, I love it that way. However, in The Silmarillion Isildur also says "was it not I who dealt him the death blow?" which leads me to wonder if perhaps it was the taking of the ring which really did do in Sauron.

Personally I think the removal of the ring = Sauron's demise is really, really silly.

Take for example this scenario: Sauron is out and about, having a grand time slaying elves and men. Try though he might, he can't help but get blood all over his hands. Now elf blood, as we all know, is really tough to get off, so he goes home and uses some of that Orange Goop to help remove the stains. As we also all know Orange Goop really makes things slippery, and *oops!* the ring accidentally slips off his finger. Doh! Sauron blows up and his body burns away.

Sounds kinda foolish to me, don't you think?

Yazad

LuthienTinuviel · 12-20-2002, 02:08 PM

i really think that if your a drak king, your not out and about slaying willy nilly, you have your goblins, orcs, wargs etc do it for you.
i also think that maybe isildur might have had a hint of want for the ring, so he could have (not really on a conscious level) claimed for himself, dealing a blow to sauron, and maybe him bing sauron's enemy gae him a wound too. sorry about the spelling, im at school and most of the keys on the keyboard don't work.

i think this belongs in the book forum too.

legolas_2002 · 12-20-2002, 02:18 PM

The film version is alot easier to understand, more accessable to the first time LOTR-er's. but i do understand your point...
Isildur is more involved in the story as well (what with aragorn and elendil etc...) so it makes more sense to only involve him i suppose...
UP THE REVOLT!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-20-2002, 02:29 PM

Since this also involves discussion of Isuldir, I would say it is more suited to the Middle-earth forum. Moving

Wayfarer · 12-20-2002, 02:44 PM

It was my understanding that gil galad and elendil had both failed to defeat sauron, but had weakened him enough that Isildur could finish the job.

Lefty Scaevola · 12-20-2002, 07:19 PM

Elendil had done serious enough, perhaps mortal, damage to Saurons body, that Saron fell and could get up. Saurons body fell on Elendil and burned him to death, as well as breaking narsil.

Ñólendil · 12-20-2002, 08:00 PM

From the Lord of the Rings, "The Ring Goes South", we have this from the mouth of Elrond:

Quote:

... I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.

From the Appendices of the Lord of the Rings, in the Tale of Years (entry 3441), we have this enlightening annal:

Quote:

Sauron overthrown by Elendil and Gil-galad, who perish. Isildur takes the One Ring. Sauron passes away and the Ringwraiths go into the shadows. The Second Age ends.

Now it is more clear: Elendil and Gil-galad slay Sauron, and perish in the attempt, then Isildur takes the Ring.

MasterMothra · 12-21-2002, 02:12 AM

Sil

" But at last the seige was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-Galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron was also thrown down, and with the hilt shard of Narsil Isildur cut the ruling ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own."

Sauron killed Gil-Galad and Elendil, but was thrown down. Isildur runs over while Saurons on the ground and cuts the ring off.

Sween · 12-21-2002, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MasterMothra
Sil

" But at last the seige was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-Galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron was also thrown down, and with the hilt shard of Narsil Isildur cut the ruling ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own."

Sauron killed Gil-Galad and Elendil, but was thrown down. Isildur runs over while Saurons on the ground and cuts the ring off.

correct me if im wrong but is how ive allways seen how it played out. Sauron faced Gil galad and elendil and they got some good blows on him, Gil Galad was the first to die (burned by saurons hands?) then elendil struck the death blow and as sauron fell he fell on top of elendil killing him and break narsil and isildur had the good sewnce to come and chop the ring off saurons finger as he died.

Lefty Scaevola · 12-21-2002, 11:06 AM

Actually, I bet that while everyone was looking a Gil-Galad and Elendil fighting Sauron, a hobbit stabed him in the anckle with a knitting needle and did him in.

Falagar · 12-21-2002, 11:18 AM

A knitting needle? I've always thought it was a pen...

12-20-2002, 02:01 PM	#1
Yazad Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 56	Who 'killed' Sauron Hiya everyone! This is probably an old topic and probably more suitable in the books section, but since it's been interpreted in both films this way, I figure it's good hear. I didn't find the old argument if there is one - could someone point me in the right direction. Okay, it's always been my interpretation that Gil-Galad and Elendil slew Sauron at the end of the 2nd age. This is supported by Gandalf's account in "Shadow of the Past" and also in one passage in "On the Rings of Power and the Third Age" (?) in The Silmarillion. Especially in the Silmarillion it's represented in a classic Beowulf way - Sauron came out and wrestled with Gil-Galad and Elendil and they were slain, but so was Sauron (my reading of it). And then Isildur came along, vulture like, and sawed the ring of Sauron's hand. Damn, I love it that way. However, in The Silmarillion Isildur also says "was it not I who dealt him the death blow?" which leads me to wonder if perhaps it was the taking of the ring which really did do in Sauron. Personally I think the removal of the ring = Sauron's demise is really, really silly. Take for example this scenario: Sauron is out and about, having a grand time slaying elves and men. Try though he might, he can't help but get blood all over his hands. Now elf blood, as we all know, is really tough to get off, so he goes home and uses some of that Orange Goop to help remove the stains. As we also all know Orange Goop really makes things slippery, and oops! the ring accidentally slips off his finger. Doh! Sauron blows up and his body burns away. Sounds kinda foolish to me, don't you think? Yazad

12-20-2002, 02:08 PM	#2
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	i really think that if your a drak king, your not out and about slaying willy nilly, you have your goblins, orcs, wargs etc do it for you. i also think that maybe isildur might have had a hint of want for the ring, so he could have (not really on a conscious level) claimed for himself, dealing a blow to sauron, and maybe him bing sauron's enemy gae him a wound too. sorry about the spelling, im at school and most of the keys on the keyboard don't work. i think this belongs in the book forum too. __________________

12-20-2002, 02:29 PM	#4
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Since this also involves discussion of Isuldir, I would say it is more suited to the Middle-earth forum. Moving __________________ "Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

12-20-2002, 02:44 PM	#5
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	It was my understanding that gil galad and elendil had both failed to defeat sauron, but had weakened him enough that Isildur could finish the job. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

12-20-2002, 07:19 PM	#6
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Elendil had done serious enough, perhaps mortal, damage to Saurons body, that Saron fell and could get up. Saurons body fell on Elendil and burned him to death, as well as breaking narsil. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

12-20-2002, 02:18 PM	#3
legolas_2002 Sapling Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Imladris, then Gondor Posts: 12	The film version is alot easier to understand, more accessable to the first time LOTR-er's. but i do understand your point... Isildur is more involved in the story as well (what with aragorn and elendil etc...) so it makes more sense to only involve him i suppose... UP THE REVOLT!

12-21-2002, 02:12 AM	#8
MasterMothra Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: utumno and angband Posts: 241	Sil " But at last the seige was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-Galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron was also thrown down, and with the hilt shard of Narsil Isildur cut the ruling ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own." Sauron killed Gil-Galad and Elendil, but was thrown down. Isildur runs over while Saurons on the ground and cuts the ring off. __________________ "........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon.

12-21-2002, 11:06 AM	#10
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Actually, I bet that while everyone was looking a Gil-Galad and Elendil fighting Sauron, a hobbit stabed him in the anckle with a knitting needle and did him in. __________________ Gaius Mucius Scaevola Older, richer, and wiser than you "Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor, but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, ... And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me,"

12-21-2002, 11:18 AM	#11
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	A knitting needle? I've always thought it was a pen... __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

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