If you were Saruman, would you have come down from Orthanc?

[The Lady of Ithilien]

After the battle of Helm's Deep and the destruction of Isengard, Gandalf offered Saruman a chance to come down and help them. Saruman refused.

What would you have done, if you were in Saruman's place?

In a discussion about Denethor in the Middle-earth Forum, Afro-Elf got me thinking about how JRRT "boxed in" his characters -- that's one of the primary things a writer has to do with characters, of course: leave them only one inevitable course of action, even if it's an unpleasant or negative one.

On thinking this over in terms of Saruman's choice, what with Isengard in ruins and the Ents installed on his grounds, his armies beaten, his Voice failing to intimidate the King of Rohan, having someone he still thought of as a subordinate member of his own order on the doorstep (someone whom Galadriel had tried to supplant him with on the Council) and who was acting very "officiously," and above all, knowing (as Denethor did) that there was truly no hope of defeating Sauron militarily but believing that the Ring was still in play somewhere, if it could only be located... well, it's difficult to think of any way I might not have acted as Saruman did, had I been in his place (which I wouldn't have been, of course, as I love trees and don't want to take over the world).

[Ñólendil]

I think what this question really comes down to is: would you choose pride, or humility? I am afraid the former would have been my lot.

[WallRocker]

I would have stayed up there laike Sarumon did. He probably still believed that he had some control(even thoough he didn't) and he was probably afraid of the thought of what Sauron would do to him if he left "The Bad Side".

[afro-elf]

It is tough to answer because I know the outcome of Saruman's choices.

I have had my own dark period and may have been swayed to the dark side ,but...I do think that inately I do not have the stomach for THAT kind of cruelity.

I don't think I would have fallen as far as Saruman. Just can not see myself allied to Orcs and STARTING wars.

I think Maglor/Boromir would have been more my fate.

[Arathorn]

If I were Saruman and I did not have as much pride as he, I think I wouldn't even be up there and the Ents wouldn't have attacked Isengard.

But if I did end up there, I'd probably flip a coin.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Pride certainly conquered him during the interview on the steps of Orthanc, and hate, as Tolkien noted. But if that were all it was, wouldn't he have remained the caricature he was when the company of Elves, Hobbits and Gandalf met him and Grima on the road north? Instead there eventually was that interesting confrontation between Frodo and Saruman, where Frodo wouldn't allow the other hobbits to kill him after Saruman's attempt to stab him. "How you have increased my sorrow," said Saruman, or something like that (the third book isn't handy just now), just before the final stroke of the War of the Ring, on Bag End's front step. Rather complex, all in all.

He certainly did believe he had some control left. Gandalf summed him up by saying "He will not serve, only command." And the fear of Sauron was real, underlain by the knowledge of Sauron's military supremacy. Why should he ally himself with ideologists who had gotten lucky and "torn his own house down," but who must ultimately lose the final battle against Evil?

It really was a very hard choice. Tolkien was merciless on some of his characters.

Saruman's a fascinating character and reminds me most closely of modern man, driven crazy by technology and isolated from reality by walls not made by human hands, confusing his isolation and alienation for freedom. His diary has recently been found, by the way (though I'm not sure the introduction to it here should be taken very seriously). To paraphrase Gandalf's words to Frodo on the matter of Gollum, it might have happened to some people I know.

[afro-elf]

driven crazy by technology and isolated from reality by walls not made by human hands, confusing his isolation and alienation for freedom.

craziness and isolation are not soley caused by technology.

faith in the pretetnatural works equally well

[francod]

Sauraman had gone to far, he knew there was no redemption. With so much blood on his hands he could not forgive himself. He had turned his back on his whole way of life, goodness, nature, and decentcy. His self-loathing would never permit him tocome down.

[Coney]

I'd have legged it as soon as the Ents turned up!...(you know your doomed when even shrubbery start to attack you).

But no.....it was pride, arrogance and hate that held Saruman to his tower.

The same emotions that caused his death at the

Shire

...........after all, he could have wandered/lived anywhere in ME if only he hadn't become such a twisted and vengeful creature.

[durin's bane]

Saruman stayed in Orthanc because he was too proud and full of hatred. I'd have come down, but I think my own personal question would be "Would I even be up there in the first place?" It's a bit of a hard decision. I'd come down in the end, when all seemed lost, but if I were this big successful, powerful wizard, at rivalry with Sauron, well, I'd stay.

[diannah]

Part of me says that I wouldn't have even been in that position, but another part of me says that I would have stayed up there but my outcome would have been different. Eventually I would go over to the good side but not right then at my time of humiliation. Gandalf was acting just a tad condescending.

[Fingolfin_1st]

it is in my belief that once you choose a side you should stick with it to the end.saruman broke my belief by going from head of the white order to the darkside with sauron but i still respect him as he did not come down from the tower to beg forgiveness which he would not recieve.

if that was me in orthanc when my army of 10000 left for helms deep i would have immidiately begun building another as a reserve.even though saruman had full confidence that his army would crush the men of rohan i would not have been so short sighted.isengard was left undefended and the ents had such an easy attack.

i would have had lookouts on the wall and a host of flame archers at the ready and the momoent that i heard my army had been defeated i would march north with my reserve army and destroy the shire a last act of malice before the end.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Er, Fingolfin_1st, is that fiery writing I see on that plain gold ring you're wearing? (Just kidding.)

Gandalf was acting just a tad condescending.

That's an interesting point. He was rather inflammatory a couple of times after his return...certainly with Denethor in Minas Tirith (pushing him to and over the brink maybe?) and now that you mention it, with Saruman, too. He could just as well have broken Saruman's staff first to establish that their professional ranking had changed, and then offered him the deal, in which case surrendering the Keys of Orthanc (which technically Gandalf and no one else present except Aragorn, who could hardly claim it then, had the right to ask for, as Orthanc was a possession of Gondor) would have seemed perfectly reasonable.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I hardly think that offering forgiveness and a new chance to someone is condescending. But anyway:

Gandalf gave Saruman a chance to come down of his own free will, with what power he had intact; same thing with his dignity. He was basically giving him a chance to start over. When Saruman refused, Gandalf took away what little he had left, and sent him on his way as a beggar.

[Nurvingiel]

If I made the choices Saruman did, I don't know if I'd be inclined to work for others when I was used to, and enjoyed, being in control.

So the question is, at what point could Saruman have turned back? Or was he already too far gone by the time people found out he was actually evil?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Since Gandalf gave him the choice at Orthanc, I assume that he could have gone back then.

[FrodoFriend]

As soon as I saw a Hobbit, I'd be outta there and after him....

FrodoFriend terrorizing Merry and Pip: Take me to your leader!!
M and P: Who??
FF: The good lookin' chap with the engagement ring!!

[The Lady of Ithilien]

So the question is, at what point could Saruman have turned back? Or was he already too far gone by the time people found out he was actually evil?

I agree with Francod -- he was deep into self-loathing at that point.

I hardly think that offering forgiveness and a new chance to someone is condescending.

Depends on how it's done. True, and I'd overlooked this, Gandalf did first ask Saruman "What have you to say that you did not say at our last meeting?" But then he laughed at him, and said he "should have been the king's jester and earned (his) bread, and stripes too, by mimicking (the king's) counselors."

However, on going back and reading that over, I see now he had to do that, to break Saruman's spell over the other listeners. And I suppose it wouldn't have been too hard for Saruman, in his right mind, to notice that Gandalf was wearing white now.

But that demand that Saruman "surrender" the Key of Orthanc, which Gandalf had no right to, was a bit much.

[Nurvingiel]

I disagree with you on that last point, I don't think Gandalf was trying to get Orthanc for himself, he just didn't want Saruman to have it to fall back on if needed, and use it as a base for evil works, like he was doing before.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Saruman had basically been overthrown; his armies were slaughtered, his walls (though not his tower) were demolished, his staff was broken. I think that he was pretty well overthrown, and Gandalf, esp as his superior, had the right to demand the Key.