Why did the elves leave Middle Earth?

Lief Erikson · 12-07-2002, 01:27 AM

I have read the books before and heard them read aloud many more times, but I don't remember if they told why the time of the elves was over.

And here's a second question, which is sort of linked to the first. Are all the elves leaving Middle Earth? If so, what about Arwen and Aragorn's children? They'll have elvish blood in their veins; will they also leave Middle Earth?

Lefty Scaevola · 12-07-2002, 02:24 AM

Their bodies are slowly being absorbed by the spirits ('fading'), in the imortal lands their bodies will better match their spirits. The main purpose of the three elven rings was to slow this fading in the kingdoms in chich they were wielded.

***RÃan*** · 12-07-2002, 03:18 AM

Lief, you simply must put Morgoth's Ring on your Christmas list

The whole fading thing is discussed there. Also, things aged at an Elvish rate in Valinor, so things didn't seem fleeting to them there, like they did in ME.

Re the kids - I would think since Arwen made her choice to be judged with the mortal race, that the kids were considered mortal (very few people got that choice - I think besides Elrond and Elros, there was Arwen, her brothers, LÃºthien, Tuor and his wife Idril, and EÃ¤rendil and his wife Elwing. Am I right, other more-knowledgeable-than-I-am people? I wonder if Beren and LÃºthien's son Dior got a choice?) Tolkien discusses somewhere how he wanted to keep just that slight Elvish strain in ME thru their kids, although they would be mortal.

Nilore · 12-07-2002, 08:24 AM

Ah but did they mean the elves from just Rivendell?

Nilore

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 12-07-2002, 11:20 AM

Quote:

I wonder if Beren and LÃºthien's son Dior got a choice?)

I remember reading that Dior did not get the choice because at the time of his birth, both Luthien and Beren were mortal.

The whole purpose for the Elves to create the Rings was to ward off the effects of time. By the end of the Third Age, the dominion of Men was at hand, and once the One Ring had been destroyed the Elven Rings were rendered useless and the fading process was coming quickly. What I don't understand is if the Elves were meant to live in the Outer Lands where they awoke, and had never been summoned to Valinor, and had the Rings not been created, how long would they have lasted in Middle-earth without fading?

Artanis · 12-07-2002, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I think besides Elrond and Elros, there was Arwen, her brothers, LÃºthien, Tuor and his wife Idril, and EÃ¤rendil and his wife Elwing.

EÃ¤rendil and Elwing and their descendants were permitted to choose, as well as LÃºthien. I think no one knows for sure about the fate of Tuor and Idril after they sailed into the West.

Quote:

Tolkien discusses somewhere how he wanted to keep just that slight Elvish strain in ME thru their kids, although they would be mortal.

I think it's in Letters, RÃ*an, but in that case I'm amazed you don't have the quote ready at hand!

Artanis · 12-07-2002, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
What I don't understand is if the Elves were meant to live in the Outer Lands where they awoke, and had never been summoned to Valinor, and had the Rings not been created, how long would they have lasted in Middle-earth without fading?

This is exactly why I question the assumption that the Elves were meant to live in Middle-Earth (By 'meant', I suppose you mean by Eru). Isn't it equally possible that they were meant to live in Valinor, even if they awoke in Middle-Earth, and that the Valar only carried out the plans of Eru when the Elves were summoned (even if the Valar didn't all agree on the matter)?

Lefty Scaevola · 12-07-2002, 02:18 PM

Or that is was the marring of Arda by Melkor, that made ME less suitable for the elves, or most likely that fading was part of the plan.

***azalea*** · 12-07-2002, 03:02 PM

Were the Moriquendi fading as well? If not, perhaps seeing the light of the Trees had something to do with it. Or, like Lefty said, maybe fading was part of the plan, that they were only meant to live in ME for a certain amount of time, and that they weren't meant to coexist w/ men forever.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 12-08-2002, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Were the Moriquendi fading as well?

All Elves that did not live in the Blessed Realm eventually faded away into the Unseen. Valinor became the only escape -- for the Eldar. The Elves unwilling to embark on the Great Journey -- or descended from them, were not allowed to sail away into the West, because they had already made their irrevocable decision to dwell in Middle-earth. I imagine the option was open to those Elves descended from both Eldar and Avari.

***azalea*** · 12-08-2002, 02:37 PM

If I were one of the descendants of the unwilling, I'd be pretty miffed at my parents!

Elf.Freak · 12-12-2002, 01:11 PM

they're leaving? they've left me behind!

j/k

i read somewhere that the elven relm is fading (well, it was on a quiz answer thing that i got...)
i wanted to know that aswell, a proper answer (i don't think i helped much...

)

Legoles · 03-02-2003, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elf.Freak
they're leaving? they've left me behind!

j/k

i read somewhere that the elven relm is fading (well, it was on a quiz answer thing that i got...)
i wanted to know that aswell, a proper answer (i don't think i helped much...)

Your name suits you

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-03-2003, 12:11 AM

Well, as long as this corpse has been re-animated, anymore discussion on the matter of the Elves leaving Middle-earth?

afro-elf · 03-03-2003, 12:42 AM

at the end of the war of wrath didn't Eonwe resissue the summons to all elves?

markedel · 03-03-2003, 01:35 AM

To all the Noldor I thought? The Sindar could come, but only the Noldor were strongly recommended.

Artanis · 03-03-2003, 03:38 AM

I thought it was all of the Eldar.

LuthienTinuviel · 03-03-2003, 11:24 PM

i always thought that the whole reason elves faded was because the earth was tainted, and their bodies came from the earth. their internal "spirits" however, were not from the earth, so they did not fade.

hmm i might be wrong though..

BeardofPants · 03-04-2003, 01:18 AM

No, it's because people like Black Breathaliser started propagating... I'd leave too if I could!

Gwaimir Windgem · 03-04-2003, 01:31 AM

Right on the bulls-eye!

12-07-2002, 01:27 AM	#1
Lief Erikson Elf Lord Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Fountain Valley, CA Posts: 6,343	Why did the elves leave Middle Earth? I have read the books before and heard them read aloud many more times, but I don't remember if they told why the time of the elves was over. And here's a second question, which is sort of linked to the first. Are all the elves leaving Middle Earth? If so, what about Arwen and Aragorn's children? They'll have elvish blood in their veins; will they also leave Middle Earth?

12-07-2002, 03:18 AM	#3
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	Lief, you simply must put Morgoth's Ring on your Christmas list The whole fading thing is discussed there. Also, things aged at an Elvish rate in Valinor, so things didn't seem fleeting to them there, like they did in ME. Re the kids - I would think since Arwen made her choice to be judged with the mortal race, that the kids were considered mortal (very few people got that choice - I think besides Elrond and Elros, there was Arwen, her brothers, LÃºthien, Tuor and his wife Idril, and EÃ¤rendil and his wife Elwing. Am I right, other more-knowledgeable-than-I-am people? I wonder if Beren and LÃºthien's son Dior got a choice?) Tolkien discusses somewhere how he wanted to keep just that slight Elvish strain in ME thru their kids, although they would be mortal. __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 12-07-2002 at 03:22 AM.

12-07-2002, 08:24 AM	#4
Nilore Elven Warrior Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: I am every where and I am no where, I am everyone and I am no-one! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Posts: 319	Ah but did they mean the elves from just Rivendell? Nilore __________________ UZG-BURGÃ›LU-OB GHASHANUM GHASHNUM-OB MOR ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Raise the Phial of Galadriel and let the Star Glass of Lothlorian cast out the Darkness of Shelob's Lair. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurholth! There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The whole hill was crowned with a dazzling light! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ bhÃ»l latu dÃ»mp Accept Your DOOM ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ DIE MERE MORTALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Oh NO I AM A MERE MORTAL AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHH Stop the NUKE Stop the NUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nilore writes last will and testament. Gets on knees And begs God for Mercy. Realizes He's already dead Flies up to heaven ( By the power of Red Bull) and lives happily ever after. THE END ( It's a MINI adventure) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

12-07-2002, 02:18 PM	#8
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Or that is was the marring of Arda by Melkor, that made ME less suitable for the elves, or most likely that fading was part of the plan. Last edited by Lefty Scaevola : 12-08-2002 at 10:40 AM.

12-12-2002, 01:11 PM	#12
Elf.Freak Orli's lil fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sugar World/Orlando Bloom Cloud Posts: 464	they're leaving? they've left me behind! j/k i read somewhere that the elven relm is fading (well, it was on a quiz answer thing that i got...) i wanted to know that aswell, a proper answer (i don't think i helped much...) __________________ >>--elven arrow--> ~ Give a man a fish and he'll feed for a day, give me a fish and you'll only get it back! ~ I've gotta new avatar! looks kinda like me...anime style! ~ LOST: Orlando Bloom. If found, please send him straight to Elf.Freak

12-07-2002, 02:24 AM	#2
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	Their bodies are slowly being absorbed by the spirits ('fading'), in the imortal lands their bodies will better match their spirits. The main purpose of the three elven rings was to slow this fading in the kingdoms in chich they were wielded.

12-07-2002, 03:02 PM	#9
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Were the Moriquendi fading as well? If not, perhaps seeing the light of the Trees had something to do with it. Or, like Lefty said, maybe fading was part of the plan, that they were only meant to live in ME for a certain amount of time, and that they weren't meant to coexist w/ men forever.

12-08-2002, 02:37 PM	#11
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	If I were one of the descendants of the unwilling, I'd be pretty miffed at my parents!

03-03-2003, 12:11 AM	#14
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Well, as long as this corpse has been re-animated, anymore discussion on the matter of the Elves leaving Middle-earth? __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

03-03-2003, 12:42 AM	#15
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	at the end of the war of wrath didn't Eonwe resissue the summons to all elves? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

03-03-2003, 01:35 AM	#16
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	To all the Noldor I thought? The Sindar could come, but only the Noldor were strongly recommended. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

03-03-2003, 03:38 AM	#17
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with FÃ«anor's 7 Posts: 4,285	I thought it was all of the Eldar. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

03-03-2003, 11:24 PM	#18
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	i always thought that the whole reason elves faded was because the earth was tainted, and their bodies came from the earth. their internal "spirits" however, were not from the earth, so they did not fade. hmm i might be wrong though.. __________________

03-04-2003, 01:18 AM	#19
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	No, it's because people like Black Breathaliser started propagating... I'd leave too if I could! __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

03-04-2003, 01:31 AM	#20
Gwaimir Windgem Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA Posts: 10,820	Right on the bulls-eye! __________________ Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle

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