Durin's bane

afro-elf · 10-29-2002, 11:36 PM

I was suprised that the Dwarves stayed for a at least a year following Durin's death. His son died the year after Durin.

Do you think Durin and Nain were waging a war against the Balrog?

Lefty Scaevola · 10-30-2002, 09:36 AM

No doubt so. The dwarves were well inured to warfare, inclouding against feel and sometimes powerful creatures. They probably tried a campaign of sealing him off in the lower mines.

Ñólendil · 11-02-2002, 03:55 AM

I don't think so. I think the Balrog had been "sleeping" since the Battle of Azanulbizar, and Balin's folk stirred him to wrath again, not long before their demise. I could be wrong.

Agburanar · 11-05-2002, 05:44 AM

I thought that Durin's folk went to drive off the orcs from Moria, only to awaken the balrog which killed them. They didn't originally know it was there. But I could be wrong.

Ñólendil · 11-05-2002, 08:27 PM

They went for the hope of finding treasures there that they felt belonged to them. They wanted to find any mithril that was left, and also one of the Seven Rings, which they evidently thought was there.

Keith K · 11-15-2002, 12:22 AM

It seems logical that they would put up some sort of fight for their home. They were undoubtably familiar with Balrogs from their experiences in the wars of the First Age. Being allied with the Noldor they must have discussed battling Balrogs during war councils. I would guess their main problem in dealing with a Balrog stems from their lack of sophistication in the realm of magic. The Dwarves don't appear to have fought against Balrogs themselves, leaving them for the Elven warriors to worry about. Obviously Balrogs were more than they could handle since an entire kingdom of them couldn't contain just one.

Ñólendil · 11-15-2002, 12:53 AM

Keith, it was the Firebeards and Broadbeams who would have known of the Balrogs. If any rumor ever made it to the Longbeards further west, I doubt there were specific details about the Balrogs whispered. According to Tolkien, of the Fellowship (excepting Gandalf), only Legolas recognized the demon for what it was. "Ai! Ai! A Balrog! A Balrog has come!" Gimli did not know it's name, he only knew "Durin's Bane".

I do not believe Balin's company knew about Balrogs.

And you need not wonder about one Balrog clearing out a Kingdom of Dwarves. The Balrogs of The Silmarillion for the most part are not the same as the Balrogs spoken of in The Lord of the Rings. Most of the passages in The Silmarillion are derived from Book of Lost Tales stuff, before Tolkien revised the Balrog-"race". In the revised version -- which does not appear in The Silmarillion -- states that there were "(say) three or at most seven" Balrogs altogether, not armies of them.

Agburanar · 11-15-2002, 06:11 AM

The balrogs were devsied as dragon-herders were they not? I thought that's why the one in Khazad dum had a 'whip of many thongs'.

Wayfarer · 11-15-2002, 08:24 PM

Incidentally... This is Durin's folk, the original ation of moria, not balin's company, that your're talking about.

I think that the balkrog wouldn't have been able to flat out depopulate the mines. My opinion is that he struck here and there and killed whoever he could, and let fear drive the rest away. Kind of like a horror movie.

Ñólendil · 11-15-2002, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Incidentally... This is Durin's folk, the original ation of moria, not balin's company, that your're talking about.

It is true of Durin's folk, but I was speaking specifically of Balin's Company. If Keith K was talking about the awakening of the Balrog by Durin's Folk during the reign of Durin VI, I apologize.

Wayfarer · 11-15-2002, 10:03 PM

He was. He noted that after the balrog had awakened and killed durin (III?), it took another year to clear out moria.

Don't you think that Durin's Bane would make a good monster movie?

Ñólendil · 11-15-2002, 10:18 PM

If you want to call him a monster. But I know what you mean.

Durin VI. Durin III was famous for receiving one of the seven Rings.

Keith K · 11-15-2002, 10:22 PM

I was originally following Afro-Elf's thought concerning the period after the Dwarves delved too deep and loosed the Balrog. The Tale of Years says that this occured in T.A. 1980. A year later Moria was emptying fast. Afro-Elf raises an interesting question here. Dwarves are stubborn, but they didn't last very long defending Khazad-Dum. Whatever happened I'm sure it was a very chaotic year for those dwarves.

10-29-2002, 11:36 PM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Durin's bane I was suprised that the Dwarves stayed for a at least a year following Durin's death. His son died the year after Durin. Do you think Durin and Nain were waging a war against the Balrog? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

11-02-2002, 03:55 AM	#3
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I don't think so. I think the Balrog had been "sleeping" since the Battle of Azanulbizar, and Balin's folk stirred him to wrath again, not long before their demise. I could be wrong. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

11-05-2002, 05:44 AM	#4
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	I thought that Durin's folk went to drive off the orcs from Moria, only to awaken the balrog which killed them. They didn't originally know it was there. But I could be wrong. __________________ I would wish, were it to any avail, that the LORD OF THE RINGS FILMS had never been wrought. ROLLING STOCK, WE'RE ROLLING STOCK!!

11-05-2002, 08:27 PM	#5
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	They went for the hope of finding treasures there that they felt belonged to them. They wanted to find any mithril that was left, and also one of the Seven Rings, which they evidently thought was there. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

11-15-2002, 12:53 AM	#7
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Keith, it was the Firebeards and Broadbeams who would have known of the Balrogs. If any rumor ever made it to the Longbeards further west, I doubt there were specific details about the Balrogs whispered. According to Tolkien, of the Fellowship (excepting Gandalf), only Legolas recognized the demon for what it was. "Ai! Ai! A Balrog! A Balrog has come!" Gimli did not know it's name, he only knew "Durin's Bane". I do not believe Balin's company knew about Balrogs. And you need not wonder about one Balrog clearing out a Kingdom of Dwarves. The Balrogs of The Silmarillion for the most part are not the same as the Balrogs spoken of in The Lord of the Rings. Most of the passages in The Silmarillion are derived from Book of Lost Tales stuff, before Tolkien revised the Balrog-"race". In the revised version -- which does not appear in The Silmarillion -- states that there were "(say) three or at most seven" Balrogs altogether, not armies of them. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 11-15-2002 at 01:00 AM.

10-30-2002, 09:36 AM	#2
Lefty Scaevola AngAdan Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Boerne, Texas Posts: 856	No doubt so. The dwarves were well inured to warfare, inclouding against feel and sometimes powerful creatures. They probably tried a campaign of sealing him off in the lower mines.

11-15-2002, 12:22 AM	#6
Keith K Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: charlotte, n.c. Posts: 1,081	It seems logical that they would put up some sort of fight for their home. They were undoubtably familiar with Balrogs from their experiences in the wars of the First Age. Being allied with the Noldor they must have discussed battling Balrogs during war councils. I would guess their main problem in dealing with a Balrog stems from their lack of sophistication in the realm of magic. The Dwarves don't appear to have fought against Balrogs themselves, leaving them for the Elven warriors to worry about. Obviously Balrogs were more than they could handle since an entire kingdom of them couldn't contain just one.

11-15-2002, 06:11 AM	#8
Agburanar Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Dorset Posts: 608	The balrogs were devsied as dragon-herders were they not? I thought that's why the one in Khazad dum had a 'whip of many thongs'. __________________ I would wish, were it to any avail, that the LORD OF THE RINGS FILMS had never been wrought. ROLLING STOCK, WE'RE ROLLING STOCK!!

11-15-2002, 08:24 PM	#9
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Incidentally... This is Durin's folk, the original ation of moria, not balin's company, that your're talking about. I think that the balkrog wouldn't have been able to flat out depopulate the mines. My opinion is that he struck here and there and killed whoever he could, and let fear drive the rest away. Kind of like a horror movie. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

11-15-2002, 10:03 PM	#11
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	He was. He noted that after the balrog had awakened and killed durin (III?), it took another year to clear out moria. Don't you think that Durin's Bane would make a good monster movie? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

11-15-2002, 10:18 PM	#12
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	If you want to call him a monster. But I know what you mean. Durin VI. Durin III was famous for receiving one of the seven Rings. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

11-15-2002, 10:22 PM	#13
Keith K Elf Lord Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: charlotte, n.c. Posts: 1,081	I was originally following Afro-Elf's thought concerning the period after the Dwarves delved too deep and loosed the Balrog. The Tale of Years says that this occured in T.A. 1980. A year later Moria was emptying fast. Afro-Elf raises an interesting question here. Dwarves are stubborn, but they didn't last very long defending Khazad-Dum. Whatever happened I'm sure it was a very chaotic year for those dwarves.

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