Was Manwë Japanese?

[Rían]

While looking up a word in the dictionary last night, I came upon an entry that made me do a double-take:

Ainu: (1) a member of an indigenous, light-skinned ethnic group of Japan, now living mostly on Hokkaido and Sakhalin

Pretty wild, isn't it? Some of you may have come across this before, but it was sure a surprise for me. But the really interesting part was the second part of the definition:

(2) the language of this people, unrelated to any other known language.

Hmmm, wonder what their music is like??

[Snowdog]

Good observation RÃ*an! I've heard of this before and surely the good professor knew his cultures! many are represented in his writings it seems.

[Rían]

Here's an awful thought - if you take Manwe's other name, Sulimo, and take the middle syllable out, you get .... SUMO! Perhaps the favorite sport of the Ainur? Gives me a whole new picture of the Tulkas/Melkor wrestling match ....... ewww!

[Ñólendil]

I think I'm turning Japanese,
I think I'm turning Japanese,
I really think -- so!

Sorry.

Maybe subconsciously Tolkien's mind picked out those sounds from some memory of a Japanese culture, but there can be no doubt that the word "Ainu" was designed to fit the structure of Quenya (which is unique but owes much to Latin and Finnish). Whatever the case, it certainly can't be a mere borrowing from the language called Ainu. I bet it's not pronounced the same either.

[Rían]

*sigh* I come home all excited to check this thread and see amazed and funny responses, and Snowdog has heard it before (but worded it very nicely so as not to squelch my excitement), and Nolendil took me too seriously, and I can't even type Nolendil's name right because my stupid keyboard brings up menus for numbers 5, 6, 7 and 8!! You guys probably didn't like my Sumo wrestling joke either I'm going over to the venting thread .... *pout*

p.s. - Nolendil, is that Japanese thing from a song?

[Shadowfax]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
You guys probably didn't like my Sumo wrestling joke either

Hey, RÃ*an, I was *shocked* and *amazed* when I read your first post; & I liked your Sumo joke too! Don't feel sad!

[Rían]

Thanks I feel much better!

p.s. - what's your favorite "silly song" from Veggie Tales?

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ealenwe
Great find on the Ainu front. I have often thought of the Elves as Bodhisattvas, or Sacred Warriors (Samuri)...

But what I am really wondering about is: How can any one person have 60thousand posts!?!?

What made you think of the Elves that way? Was it a kind of "solemnness" about them, and that they are very powerful warriors?
I wondered about the 60,000 posts, too, when I first joined, but now I'm beginning to get the picture...

[Ñólendil]

RÃ*an, the part of my name you're having trouble with is "ñóle", which means "lore, knowledge", but it is only spelt so once (albeit the latest spelling, I believe). All earlier spelling have "nóle". "Nólendil" is thus not wrong, although the long "o" really is needed.

Or you can type "Ngólendil", as Ñ stands for Ng in Tolkien's translation of Quenderin Tengwar.

[Ealenwe]

Rian.
I think of the Samuri in relation to Zen and so relate it to Elves. Zen practice is often associated with concentration and focus. It is my sense that the Elves were naturally mindful and after a few thousand years most likely perfected the mind. As their history is so plagued with strife and 'war' I suspect this focus of mind was utilized in a strategic way in battle and in preparation for battle. A practiced fearlessness, so to speak.

As for 'bodhisattvas', this is a Buddhist term for enlightened beings who choose not to live in Nirvana, but to be reborn again and again until all sentient beings are liberated and free from suffering. Having said that, perhaps 'Elves' in general are not bodhisattvas, but many of them as well as Gandalf might fit the description.

And thanks for kindly overlooking my 'new thread' mistake.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ñólendil
RÃ*an, the part of my name you're having trouble with is "ñóle", which means "lore, knowledge", but it is only spelt so once (albeit the latest spelling, I believe). All earlier spelling have "nóle". "Nólendil" is thus not wrong, although the long "o" really is needed.

Or you can type "Ngólendil", as Ñ stands for Ng in Tolkien's translation of Quenderin Tengwar.

Thanks, (copy and paste to get -->) Nólendil, I was wondering what it meant - so is it "friend of knowledge?"

I would almost rather get no special characters than just some - Tinuviel Child has the same problem I do *sigh*. I can just type é, ä, ï and Ä. I suppose I should change my user name to something with all of the special characters, then they would be readily available for me to copy and paste.

Initial "Ng" is a very interesting and difficult sound for Americans to make. I had a friend from Thailand with the last name of Nguikaramahawongse (typical long Thai last name - the backs of their sports jerseys must be interesting....) who worked very hard with me to get that sound right. I enjoy learning sounds of different languages, like German umlaut-ed vowels. (BTW - does the mark over the "ó" indicate a long vowel? I though it indicated placing stress on the syllable??)

I wonder what different sounds Japanese has? From the little exposure that I have had to it, it sounds very nasal.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ealenwe
And thanks for kindly overlooking my 'new thread' mistake.

OMGoodness, no problem a'tall! When I was new here (well, I still haven't even been here a month yet, but I don't feel totally new anymore), I wasn't even clever enough to find the "new thread" button, I had to PM an admin, who nicely told me where it was. I use the "new thread" button at the top of the forum section, though, and hadn't even noticed it was also at the bottom of a post.

[Lanelf]

LOL! I love the Sumo thing, RÃ*an!
The only real problem I have with this is that there is no letter combination of 'we' in Japanese. I study the language, and my older sister has been to Japan. There is 'wa' symbol, but the closest to 'we' is 'he'.
Ok, probably you didn't get that or you think I'm a snob. I meant it to just tell you. Sorry!
Lanelf.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lanelf
LOL! I love the Sumo thing, RÃ*an!

Thanks!

The only real problem I have with this is that there is no letter combination of 'we' in Japanese. I study the language, and my older sister has been to Japan. There is 'wa' symbol, but the closest to 'we' is 'he'.
Ok, probably you didn't get that or you think I'm a snob. I meant it to just tell you. Sorry!
Lanelf.

I'm sorry, I must be pretty dense, I don't get it I certainly don't think you're a snob! Did you find any sounds that were especially hard to make in Japanese? Oh, and did you ever find any more Veni, Vidi things?

[Millane]

i did click about the ainu thing when we were learning about them in Japanese. they are like what the aboriginals are in australia if that is any help.
but after thinking about it again i just dont see why Tolkien did it there dosnt seem to me to be anything linking the 2.
my only guess is that it was a coincidence or he just heard it and thought ohh that'll do...

the sumo thing very classy

[Rían]

We'll never know ... I think it was probably just a coincidence, but I could also see him coming across this word and thinking, "Hmm, that sounds exactly like a Quenyan word, and how fun that the language is unrelated to any other language! Think I'll work it in...."
Glad you like the Sumo thing - it's pretty funny to me picturing Melkor and Tulkas in those funny cloth-thingies with big stomachs hanging over, circling around each other, with Manwe and co. looking on

[Ñólendil]

RÃ*an, yes, my name means "Friend of Knowledge, Lover of Lore". I'm sorry I didn't make that more clear. "Friend of Knowledge" used to be in my user title ('cause I'm special ), so I forgot.

Initial "Ng" is a very interesting and difficult sound for Americans to make.

Tell me about it. I am an U. S. American myself (of California), and I have a lot of trouble with the initial "ng" sound. It comes out sounding too much like "g".

[Rían]

I found that (for me) the best way to do initial Ng (at least my Thai friend was satisfied with it) was to, in my mind, start to say "Ring", or think of the word "Ring", but never say the "Ri" part; then my mouth was shaped for the Ng, which I would then voice, along with the rest of the word. Does that make sense? It might help you out. It should definitely give you a stronger "N" part to the Ng.

[Lanelf]

I realise I should have made that clearer! You may know that the Japanese have a different alphabet to English, and it is based on letter combinations, ie instead of a, b, c they have 'a', 'ka', 'sa' things, and 'i', 'ki' etc. They don't use the sounds 'L', 'si' or 'we'. As well as some others. That was probably confusing. If you didn't get that just ignore this. Sorry, I'm just sitting here giving out crash-courses in Japanese...
Lanelf.
I feel really stupid about this.

[Rían]

I know absolutely nothing about Japanese, that's why I wanted to hear a bit about it from someone who has studied it. I didn't know they used letter combos. Is it like a consonant symbol modified by a vowel mark, or just an entirely new symbol? That is, do "ka" and "ki" look similar, because they both have a 'k'? And so "ka" and "sa" look similar because they both have an 'a'?

Sorry you feel stupid If my post is stupid or annoying to you, then just ignore it. It's probably time to stop this thread, anyway, I just wanted to share the interesting thing I found in the dictionary. But I like talking about other languages...