Gandalf aka Mithrandir

Curandir · 09-04-2002, 01:43 AM

Here is my idea on what Gandalf is and is not. Please critique me and let me know where I may have this wrong. Gandalf is of the same "stuff" that Sauron is, only that Gandalf did not hunger for power and dominion. In fact when Gandalf returns as the White wizard you could say that he is the antithesis to Sauron. Gandalf's spirit has been around since just shortly after the Valar were sung into being. (One side question, If Sauron is Melkor's little helper, who was Gandalf answering to?) Just thought this might prove to be an interesting disscussion.

thingol · 09-04-2002, 02:35 AM

gandalf and sauron were maias and saruman too but that doesnt have any thing too do with their brains and behavior.
soo they think different and from that comes different behaviors.

Sween · 09-04-2002, 05:02 AM

on the bridge of Kazah dum gandalf proclaims 'i am the servent of the secreat fire' this is illvertar aka god allmighty.

Gandalf answers to god.

Beleg Strongbow · 09-04-2002, 08:29 AM

Gandalf is the servant of Manwe.

Radagast The Brown · 09-04-2002, 02:59 PM

Gandalf came to middle earth with less power then he had in Valonor, and with a body he wasn't able to get out of. He was the smartest maia.

I think Gandalf served Manwe too, couse in the UT in the Istari part Tolkien wrote Manwe chose him to go to Middle earth.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 09-04-2002, 06:41 PM

He was a servant of Manwe and Varda, though earlier texts also associate him with Nienna, or Irmo.

Gilrond · 09-06-2002, 05:30 PM

In a passage in Unfinished Tales of Middle-Earth, it is said that Olorin was "counsellor of Irmo." Does this then state he was not but a servant of the Valar, but also close to an equal?

Am I over my head in this? Please correct me!

"Even the very wise cannot see all ends." --Gandalf

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 09-06-2002, 07:44 PM

I think it just implies that OlÃ³rin was very wise, whether he was almost an equal or not (and I do not think he was). In the Valaquenta OlÃ³rin is named the wisest of the Maiar. This does not mean that he was as wise or more wise than Irmo (though I don't doubt the possibility), just that he was a good person to have as a councellor. Elrond's chief advisor was Erestor, but Erestor was probably not accounted among the Elven-wise, as Elrond was.

Gilrond · 09-06-2002, 08:31 PM

Thank you.

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 09-06-2002, 11:38 PM

My absurd pleasure.

Laurelyn · 09-09-2002, 06:03 AM

Doesn't the name Olorin mean "dream" in Quenya?

Radagast The Brown · 09-09-2002, 06:31 AM

yeah, I think so. it means fantasy, dream, vision or ilusion, I think. Like: Olofantur - the real name of Lorien the vala.

Beleg Strongbow · 09-09-2002, 01:36 PM

yes... Olorin hung out in the gardens of Lorien.

***RÃan*** · 09-09-2002, 01:54 PM

There's also a little section in "Morgoth's Ring" , part 3 (The Later Quenta Silmarillion), section 1 (Of the Valar) where it mentions OlÃ³rin.

"And wise was OlÃ³rin, counsellor of Irmo: secret enemy of the secret evils of Melkor, for his bright visions drove away the imaginations of darkness ... Nothing he made himself and nothing he posessed, but kindled the hearts of others, and in their delight he was glad."

What a great guy!

That's how you should have been, Saruman!

Ã‘Ã³lendil · 09-09-2002, 06:51 PM

"OlÃ³rin" is of unknown meaning, but it's thought to be connected with olos/r, "vision, dream, phantasy". It's not known in what way.

Curandir · 09-10-2002, 01:09 AM

Thats a great quote RÃ*an. That sumed up the answer to my question, or thought, quite nicely. Thank you. I don't know about you guys but I'm getting swamped by questions from people who have either never read the books, said they read the books (which I doubt) or have completly forgotten the series, as crazy as that may seem. Stuff like "Who/What is Gandalf" I just wanted to make sure that every thing was straight in my head before I started answering willie nille. One question has me a little befuddled though, Arwen she is the daughter of Galadriel right? Then what is she doing at Elrond's place? Long term visit? Probably could have started another thread but I like to conserve where I can!

Diamond of Long Cleeve · 09-10-2002, 03:52 AM

Arwen is the daughter of Elrond and his wife Celebrian. Celebrian is the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn. Arwen lived with her father in Rivendell but often visited for long periods in Lorien, the land of her mother's kin.

Beleg Strongbow · 09-10-2002, 07:54 AM

Gandalf and Aragorn were related!

Aragorn, descended from Elendil, descended from Elros First King of Numenor.

Elros son of Earendil and Luthien daughter of Thingol and Melian. Melian was the sister or cousin or something of Olorin.

***RÃan*** · 09-10-2002, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beleg Strongbow
Elros son of Earendil and Luthien daughter of Thingol and Melian. Melian was the sister or cousin or something of Olorin.

Now that's interesting about Melian and Olorin ... can you find any references?

I found another little section in Morgoth's Ring about Olorin - also in "The later quenta silmarillion" - I'm not quite sure how to reference it, possibly part 2, footnote 10 a,b (Of the Maiar) - "His triumph was in the uprising of the fallen, and his joy was in the renewal of hope."

Again, quite a contrast with Saruman.

Beleg Strongbow · 09-10-2002, 12:56 PM

I'll go look in the Silmarillion... I think that's where it was.

09-04-2002, 01:43 AM	#1
Curandir Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 28	Gandalf aka Mithrandir Here is my idea on what Gandalf is and is not. Please critique me and let me know where I may have this wrong. Gandalf is of the same "stuff" that Sauron is, only that Gandalf did not hunger for power and dominion. In fact when Gandalf returns as the White wizard you could say that he is the antithesis to Sauron. Gandalf's spirit has been around since just shortly after the Valar were sung into being. (One side question, If Sauron is Melkor's little helper, who was Gandalf answering to?) Just thought this might prove to be an interesting disscussion. __________________ ..."the powerful play goes on and we all may contribute a verse"

09-04-2002, 05:02 AM	#3
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	on the bridge of Kazah dum gandalf proclaims 'i am the servent of the secreat fire' this is illvertar aka god allmighty. Gandalf answers to god. __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

09-04-2002, 08:29 AM	#4
Beleg Strongbow Truest of Friends Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania, but I have a vacation home in the Westfarthing. Posts: 520	Gandalf is the servant of Manwe. __________________ "...Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days..." Aure Entuleva! John Kerry for President!

09-04-2002, 02:59 PM	#5
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	Gandalf came to middle earth with less power then he had in Valonor, and with a body he wasn't able to get out of. He was the smartest maia. I think Gandalf served Manwe too, couse in the UT in the Istari part Tolkien wrote Manwe chose him to go to Middle earth. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

09-04-2002, 06:41 PM	#6
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	He was a servant of Manwe and Varda, though earlier texts also associate him with Nienna, or Irmo. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

09-04-2002, 02:35 AM	#2
thingol Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norway,stord Posts: 30	gandalf and sauron were maias and saruman too but that doesnt have any thing too do with their brains and behavior. soo they think different and from that comes different behaviors.

09-06-2002, 05:30 PM	#7
Gilrond Enting Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 52	On Olorin (Gandalf) In a passage in Unfinished Tales of Middle-Earth, it is said that Olorin was "counsellor of Irmo." Does this then state he was not but a servant of the Valar, but also close to an equal? Am I over my head in this? Please correct me! "Even the very wise cannot see all ends." --Gandalf

09-06-2002, 07:44 PM	#8
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	I think it just implies that OlÃ³rin was very wise, whether he was almost an equal or not (and I do not think he was). In the Valaquenta OlÃ³rin is named the wisest of the Maiar. This does not mean that he was as wise or more wise than Irmo (though I don't doubt the possibility), just that he was a good person to have as a councellor. Elrond's chief advisor was Erestor, but Erestor was probably not accounted among the Elven-wise, as Elrond was. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

09-06-2002, 08:31 PM	#9
Gilrond Enting Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 52	Thank you.

09-06-2002, 11:38 PM	#10
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	My absurd pleasure. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

09-09-2002, 06:03 AM	#11
Laurelyn Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan? Posts: 1,315	Doesn't the name Olorin mean "dream" in Quenya? __________________ The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka

09-09-2002, 06:31 AM	#12
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	yeah, I think so. it means fantasy, dream, vision or ilusion, I think. Like: Olofantur - the real name of Lorien the vala. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

09-09-2002, 01:36 PM	#13
Beleg Strongbow Truest of Friends Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania, but I have a vacation home in the Westfarthing. Posts: 520	yes... Olorin hung out in the gardens of Lorien. __________________ "...Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days..." Aure Entuleva! John Kerry for President!

09-09-2002, 01:54 PM	#14
*RÃan* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	There's also a little section in "Morgoth's Ring" , part 3 (The Later Quenta Silmarillion), section 1 (Of the Valar) where it mentions OlÃ³rin. "And wise was OlÃ³rin, counsellor of Irmo: secret enemy of the secret evils of Melkor, for his bright visions drove away the imaginations of darkness ... Nothing he made himself and nothing he posessed, but kindled the hearts of others, and in their delight he was glad." What a great guy! That's how you should have been, Saruman! __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ã‘Ã¡ Ã«?* Ã³Ãº Ã©Ã¤ Ã¯Ã¶Ã¼ Ã–Ã± Ã‰ Ãž Ã° ÃŸ Â® Ã§ Ã¥ â„¢ Ã¦ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lÃ³mÃ«! AurÃ« entuluva!

09-09-2002, 06:51 PM	#15
Ã‘Ã³lendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	"OlÃ³rin" is of unknown meaning, but it's thought to be connected with olos/r, "vision, dream, phantasy". It's not known in what way. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

09-10-2002, 01:09 AM	#16
Curandir Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 28	Thats a great quote RÃ*an. That sumed up the answer to my question, or thought, quite nicely. Thank you. I don't know about you guys but I'm getting swamped by questions from people who have either never read the books, said they read the books (which I doubt) or have completly forgotten the series, as crazy as that may seem. Stuff like "Who/What is Gandalf" I just wanted to make sure that every thing was straight in my head before I started answering willie nille. One question has me a little befuddled though, Arwen she is the daughter of Galadriel right? Then what is she doing at Elrond's place? Long term visit? Probably could have started another thread but I like to conserve where I can! __________________ ..."the powerful play goes on and we all may contribute a verse"

09-10-2002, 03:52 AM	#17
Diamond of Long Cleeve Elf Lord Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Sydney Posts: 569	Arwen is the daughter of Elrond and his wife Celebrian. Celebrian is the daughter of Galadriel and Celeborn. Arwen lived with her father in Rivendell but often visited for long periods in Lorien, the land of her mother's kin.

09-10-2002, 07:54 AM	#18
Beleg Strongbow Truest of Friends Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania, but I have a vacation home in the Westfarthing. Posts: 520	Gandalf and Aragorn were related! Aragorn, descended from Elendil, descended from Elros First King of Numenor. Elros son of Earendil and Luthien daughter of Thingol and Melian. Melian was the sister or cousin or something of Olorin. __________________ "...Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days..." Aure Entuleva! John Kerry for President!

09-10-2002, 12:56 PM	#20
Beleg Strongbow Truest of Friends Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania, but I have a vacation home in the Westfarthing. Posts: 520	I'll go look in the Silmarillion... I think that's where it was. __________________ "...Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days..." Aure Entuleva! John Kerry for President!

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