Glamdring,Orcrist and Sting

nazgul prince · 09-03-2002, 03:47 PM

Alright i know they were fabled blades of gondolin.And they all glowed cold and bright when enemies were near.Plus they had polised blades,and were light as a feather.But were they UNBREAKABLE? Any thoughts.

Nibs · 09-04-2002, 02:18 AM

I don't think you could say that about anything in Middle-Earth.

Beleg Strongbow · 09-04-2002, 07:39 AM

Sure you could!

...the blade that is drawn from this sheath shall not be stained or broken even in defeat....
Galadriel to Aragorn.

Nibs · 09-04-2002, 09:51 AM

Second-hand information. No good here.

I need it straight from Eru.

Blackheart · 09-04-2002, 12:58 PM

The blade may be broken in victory however.

No, nothing in Arda is unbreakable.

Not the Dark Lord's will, or even Tom Bombadil.

As for the blades forged in Gondolin, they were not unbreakable. Sufficient application of force in the correct method will break anything.

They were very good examples of the craft however, as is only fitting for a sword forged for Turgon, king of Gondolin (Glamdring). Likely Orcrist and Sting were from the same household of the King, possibly used by his captain Ecthelion of the Fountain.

They weren't very likely to break with any kind of normal use, but then there might be situations where it would arise. A helpful idea might be something like the scene from Excalibur, where Arthur breaks the sword on Lancelot's armor, breaking his (Lancelot's) curse, but dooming his kingdom.

Caleb · 09-06-2002, 10:55 PM

It is my personal belief that orcrist was the sword Ecthelion used to kill a Balrog.

Blackheart · 09-08-2002, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Caleb
It is my personal belief that orcrist was the sword Ecthelion used to kill a Balrog.

It's possible, but there isn't any text to support it.

Beleg Strongbow · 09-23-2002, 01:18 PM

Anduril was so unbreakable.
If it could not be stained "even in defeat" then of course it shouldn't have been breakable in victory.
I grant that Galadriel's words should not have been taken as a universal rule; if you dropped Anduril into Orodruin it would melt.

Quote:

They weren't very likely to break with any kind of normal use, but then there might be situations where it would arise.

I think that they wouldn't break under any kind of use (unbreakable) but could be broken by really intense force. Still I don't think anyone short of Melkor (he who arises in might, remember), Iluvatar of course or possibly another Valar could have broken them.

In other words, I think that Anduril was unbreakable (and so were Orcrist, Glamdring and Sting to some lesser extent) by normal use.

nazgul prince · 09-23-2002, 06:34 PM

Thank beleg that's what i was trying to get at. A magical sword is useless if it can be broken.Though i do think the barrow blades could break.They were made of a lesser craft then the others.Kinda semi magical.In fact frodo's does if i remember correctly.

Cirdan · 09-24-2002, 04:27 PM

It is illogical to think a blade is unbreakable. First of all the blade must be forged, therefore it must be malleable enough to work. If it is too hard it becomes brittle. And as for the magic, there is all kinds of magic spells and counter spells and various defensive magic. A blade that would withstand dragon's breath might not be resistant to the power of a Nazgul so it would depend on how the blade is used as well. The original arguement above still holds; nothing in ME is unbreakable.

Blackheart · 09-29-2002, 04:19 PM

Wait a minute. You aren't making any sense.

<I think that they wouldn't break under any kind of use (unbreakable) but could be broken by really intense force.>

That's just plain illogical. If it can be broken, then it isn't unbreakable.

Besides, it's the damned sheath bequeathing the power anyway! Not something inherant in the sword.

Duddun · 10-01-2002, 12:16 AM

I think they may be unbreakable but not undestroyable like the ring, which can not be broken but can be destroyed.

Blackheart · 10-01-2002, 11:44 AM

Destroyed=broken, you know... or is at least a definate subset of it.

Radagast The Brown · 10-03-2002, 03:28 PM

not exactly blackheart:
When you destroy something you don't have to break it too. like the ring - no one broke it but it had been destroyed. and for example you can't break a paper. I think Duddan is right.

Lefty Scaevola · 10-03-2002, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Blackheart
The blade may be broken in victory however.

That was its fate a Narsil, when Elendil mortally wouned Sauron and then brocke the sword. I would however catagozise Galadrial words not a a statement of fact or even a prophecy, but as an invocation and blessing.

BeardofPants · 10-03-2002, 05:19 PM

de·stroy Pronunciation Key (d-stroi)
v. de·stroyed, de·stroy·ing, de·stroys
v. tr.

1. To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire.
2. To tear down or break up; demolish. See Synonyms at ruin.

Sounds the same to me.

Radagast The Brown · 10-04-2002, 03:57 PM

BoP, it's not the same because:
there are things you can destroy but can't break like: you can destroy a paper but you cannot break it. you can destroy the ring but cannot break it.
You can't break the ring because "break" is: To separate (into two pieces or more) because of strain, weight, etc.
when the ring had been destroyed, it didn't got separated into two pieces or more.

BeardofPants · 10-04-2002, 06:37 PM

Okay, so you're definition of "to break" is to separate into more than one piece? Right, so you can tear paper up - that could be defined as "to break." You can shatter a sword into more than one piece. You can use heat to melt the gold down into more than one piece. And so on. I'm sorry, but I don't think that argument holds up. As to the One Ring, well, I'm assuming that it melted down, as Gandalf mentioned that ordinary fire couldn't melt it; only a dragon, none of which remained whose fires were hot enough, and Mt. Doom. You are BREAKING down the composition of the ring. You are BREAKING the spells of the ring.

samwise of the shire · 10-05-2002, 01:06 PM

BH I think that what Beleg is getting at is that a sword like Anduril or Orcrist or Glamdring or Sting cant break under any sort of use in battle, but if let's say Saruman wanted to Break Glamdring then he coudl apply enough force magical or physical to break it. Because Glamdring,Orcrist and Sting were made by the elves and that Anduril was reforged by the elves in Rivendell I think that those swords would have a longer life and a stronger sort of power to keep them from breaking faster then Narsil did. Of course Narsil cut off Saurons finger (that's something that REALLY bugs me. How in the HECK did Isildur sneak up on Sauron to cut off the ONE finger? I mean wouldn't Sauron like KNOW?) and the power from his being might be enough to snap a sword in half.
Umm going back to that Semi Magical sword of Frodo's, I have a question as to the Barrow swords. After Merry stabbed the witch king\head nazgul\black rider with his barrow sword then eyowen was able to finish him off. But when FRODO used HIS Barrow Sword on the same Black Rider then WHY didn't he loose his power? Or did it take a special combination of Barrow Sword semi magic and one unmagical sword to kill the Witch King? Or was he like Achilles...had to be stabbed in on special place to die? OR did the Nazgul kings magic just sort of weaken when he found out that the "Man" standing in front of him was really a woman? OR did the shock of being stabbed by another hobbit just make him supceptible to death?
But either way I have to agree that I think that the Barrow Swords are magical. Maybe because they've been steeped in Barrow Whight magic or maybe because the men who made them wove spells into them to make them withstand the ages.
Going back to that unlogical discussion. BH I think that ME doesn't have the same sort of Logic we here on Earth do. I mean the logic of Merry's sword stabbing the Nazgul king and then Eoywen being able to finish him off when a sword almost of the same make had stabbed the same Black Rider only a few months before without any obvious effect doesn't make any sense whatsoever here...but there it may have been the fact that Frodo was in the Nazguls world when he stabbed the Black Rider and so didn't hurt him. Who knows. It's ME logic which I find easier to understand then our own.
Just some thoughts from a very illogical hobbit lass,
Cheers,
Sam

Cirdan · 10-05-2002, 01:14 PM

There was some abiguity as to whether Frodo made contact in the dell on Weathertop. It may have been a bit of forshadowing to explain why the riders hesitated to finish the job. They probably knew that they could be destroyed by the non-man hobbit wielding a magic blade (int glowed red in the wraith world) so they waited for the morgul blade to do it's work.

09-03-2002, 03:47 PM	#1
nazgul prince Enting Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 58	Glamdring,Orcrist and Sting Alright i know they were fabled blades of gondolin.And they all glowed cold and bright when enemies were near.Plus they had polised blades,and were light as a feather.But were they UNBREAKABLE? Any thoughts.

09-04-2002, 02:18 AM	#2
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	I don't think you could say that about anything in Middle-Earth. __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us.

09-04-2002, 07:39 AM	#3
Beleg Strongbow Truest of Friends Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pennsylvania, but I have a vacation home in the Westfarthing. Posts: 520	Sure you could! ...the blade that is drawn from this sheath shall not be stained or broken even in defeat.... Galadriel to Aragorn. __________________ "...Beleg Strongbow, truest of friends, greatest in skill of all that harboured in the woods of Beleriand in the Elder Days..." Aure Entuleva! John Kerry for President!

09-04-2002, 09:51 AM	#4
Nibs Head Hollara Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 751	Second-hand information. No good here. I need it straight from Eru. __________________ "People used to ring up and say 'Don't quit your day job' or 'sell your synth', but the joke's on them: we were fired and the synth is broken!" -John Flansburgh from They Might Be Giants Ever heard of Mormons? I'm one. Click here to know more about us.

09-04-2002, 12:58 PM	#5
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	The blade may be broken in victory however. No, nothing in Arda is unbreakable. Not the Dark Lord's will, or even Tom Bombadil. As for the blades forged in Gondolin, they were not unbreakable. Sufficient application of force in the correct method will break anything. They were very good examples of the craft however, as is only fitting for a sword forged for Turgon, king of Gondolin (Glamdring). Likely Orcrist and Sting were from the same household of the King, possibly used by his captain Ecthelion of the Fountain. They weren't very likely to break with any kind of normal use, but then there might be situations where it would arise. A helpful idea might be something like the scene from Excalibur, where Arthur breaks the sword on Lancelot's armor, breaking his (Lancelot's) curse, but dooming his kingdom. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

09-06-2002, 10:55 PM	#6
Caleb Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: I'll never tell. Posts: 37	It is my personal belief that orcrist was the sword Ecthelion used to kill a Balrog. __________________ -Caleb

09-23-2002, 06:34 PM	#9
nazgul prince Enting Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 58	Thank beleg that's what i was trying to get at. A magical sword is useless if it can be broken.Though i do think the barrow blades could break.They were made of a lesser craft then the others.Kinda semi magical.In fact frodo's does if i remember correctly.

09-24-2002, 04:27 PM	#10
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	It is illogical to think a blade is unbreakable. First of all the blade must be forged, therefore it must be malleable enough to work. If it is too hard it becomes brittle. And as for the magic, there is all kinds of magic spells and counter spells and various defensive magic. A blade that would withstand dragon's breath might not be resistant to the power of a Nazgul so it would depend on how the blade is used as well. The original arguement above still holds; nothing in ME is unbreakable. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

09-29-2002, 04:19 PM	#11
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Wait a minute. You aren't making any sense. <I think that they wouldn't break under any kind of use (unbreakable) but could be broken by really intense force.> That's just plain illogical. If it can be broken, then it isn't unbreakable. Besides, it's the damned sheath bequeathing the power anyway! Not something inherant in the sword. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

10-01-2002, 12:16 AM	#12
Duddun I Antha Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: You expect ME to know? Posts: 784	I think they may be unbreakable but not undestroyable like the ring, which can not be broken but can be destroyed. __________________ If you say my name I go "What?" If you say my name twice I go and look it up in the dictionary. **************************** I'm Not Evil! ************************** If the critics say it's good, is it really That good? ************************** It's a bird! It's a plane! No! It's a balloon! **************************** Duddun, Son of Bubbun

10-01-2002, 11:44 AM	#13
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Destroyed=broken, you know... or is at least a definate subset of it. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

10-03-2002, 03:28 PM	#14
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	not exactly blackheart: When you destroy something you don't have to break it too. like the ring - no one broke it but it had been destroyed. and for example you can't break a paper. I think Duddan is right. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

10-03-2002, 05:19 PM	#16
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	de·stroy Pronunciation Key (d-stroi) v. de·stroyed, de·stroy·ing, de·stroys v. tr. 1. To ruin completely; spoil: The ancient manuscripts were destroyed by fire. 2. To tear down or break up; demolish. See Synonyms at ruin. Sounds the same to me. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

10-04-2002, 03:57 PM	#17
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	BoP, it's not the same because: there are things you can destroy but can't break like: you can destroy a paper but you cannot break it. you can destroy the ring but cannot break it. You can't break the ring because "break" is: To separate (into two pieces or more) because of strain, weight, etc. when the ring had been destroyed, it didn't got separated into two pieces or more. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

10-04-2002, 06:37 PM	#18
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Okay, so you're definition of "to break" is to separate into more than one piece? Right, so you can tear paper up - that could be defined as "to break." You can shatter a sword into more than one piece. You can use heat to melt the gold down into more than one piece. And so on. I'm sorry, but I don't think that argument holds up. As to the One Ring, well, I'm assuming that it melted down, as Gandalf mentioned that ordinary fire couldn't melt it; only a dragon, none of which remained whose fires were hot enough, and Mt. Doom. You are BREAKING down the composition of the ring. You are BREAKING the spells of the ring. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 10-04-2002 at 06:38 PM.

10-05-2002, 01:06 PM	#19
samwise of the shire Radically Tolkienited Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: If home is where the heart is, and my heart is in heaven...that should answer your question. <+>< Posts: 967	BH I think that what Beleg is getting at is that a sword like Anduril or Orcrist or Glamdring or Sting cant break under any sort of use in battle, but if let's say Saruman wanted to Break Glamdring then he coudl apply enough force magical or physical to break it. Because Glamdring,Orcrist and Sting were made by the elves and that Anduril was reforged by the elves in Rivendell I think that those swords would have a longer life and a stronger sort of power to keep them from breaking faster then Narsil did. Of course Narsil cut off Saurons finger (that's something that REALLY bugs me. How in the HECK did Isildur sneak up on Sauron to cut off the ONE finger? I mean wouldn't Sauron like KNOW?) and the power from his being might be enough to snap a sword in half. Umm going back to that Semi Magical sword of Frodo's, I have a question as to the Barrow swords. After Merry stabbed the witch king\head nazgul\black rider with his barrow sword then eyowen was able to finish him off. But when FRODO used HIS Barrow Sword on the same Black Rider then WHY didn't he loose his power? Or did it take a special combination of Barrow Sword semi magic and one unmagical sword to kill the Witch King? Or was he like Achilles...had to be stabbed in on special place to die? OR did the Nazgul kings magic just sort of weaken when he found out that the "Man" standing in front of him was really a woman? OR did the shock of being stabbed by another hobbit just make him supceptible to death? But either way I have to agree that I think that the Barrow Swords are magical. Maybe because they've been steeped in Barrow Whight magic or maybe because the men who made them wove spells into them to make them withstand the ages. Going back to that unlogical discussion. BH I think that ME doesn't have the same sort of Logic we here on Earth do. I mean the logic of Merry's sword stabbing the Nazgul king and then Eoywen being able to finish him off when a sword almost of the same make had stabbed the same Black Rider only a few months before without any obvious effect doesn't make any sense whatsoever here...but there it may have been the fact that Frodo was in the Nazguls world when he stabbed the Black Rider and so didn't hurt him. Who knows. It's ME logic which I find easier to understand then our own. Just some thoughts from a very illogical hobbit lass, Cheers, Sam __________________ Jesus is my all in all <><+<><+<><+<><+<><+<><+ People who are so concerned with escapism do have a name...we call them jailers. ~J.R.R Tolkien Radically Saved, Totally Tolkienited GOD... BLESS... AMERICA...

10-05-2002, 01:14 PM	#20
Cirdan Elf Lord of the Grey Havens Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: somewhere else Posts: 2,381	There was some abiguity as to whether Frodo made contact in the dell on Weathertop. It may have been a bit of forshadowing to explain why the riders hesitated to finish the job. They probably knew that they could be destroyed by the non-man hobbit wielding a magic blade (int glowed red in the wraith world) so they waited for the morgul blade to do it's work. __________________ There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Happy Meal Frodo-hobbit with Glow-in-the-Dark Sting?	Inoldonil	Lord of the Rings Movies	84	02-21-2014 06:33 PM
The Third Entmooters Party	Finrod Felagund	RPG Forum	87	03-21-2003 04:26 PM
These are some good pics of Sting & The one ring	ArwenEvenstar	Lord of the Rings Books	3	02-09-2002 09:45 PM
Sting owners	spidersbane	General Messages	6	01-10-2002 02:50 PM