Do Orcs live forever?

Sween · 08-17-2002, 01:05 PM

They are ment to be twisted form of Elf (am i right?) therefore do they live forever like the elves? And if the die are they sent back to the halls to be reborn (very doubtfull i know) or do they come back as the elfs that they once were (apart from the ones born orc)

Faramir · 08-17-2002, 01:11 PM

No, they don't live forever. But I do think that they reincarnate, and that's how they multiply so quickly.

HobbitChick88 · 08-17-2002, 05:19 PM

aren't they kind of like the elves, in that they kind of have to be killed to die?

Faramir · 08-17-2002, 05:44 PM

I don't think so.

Darn 90 second rule!!!

Archbob the Elder · 08-17-2002, 06:06 PM

It says in the Sim that orcs have the lives of elves. Because it is thought that orcs are Melkor's mockery of elves.

Sween · 08-17-2002, 06:07 PM

i was allways under the impression they were elves that did not travel into the west when valinor called them (something begining with 'a' i think was the name cannot be arsed going to Encolpedia of arda) and they were taken by Melkor and tourturted and chan ged to Orcs but techincally they are still elves if you know what i mean?

Sween · 08-17-2002, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Archbob the Elder
It says in the Sim that orcs have the lives of elves. Because it is thought that orcs are Melkor's mockery of elves.

In the same way trolls are in mockery of ents. Orcs are in mockery of elves. But melkor allthough powerfull does not have the ability to grant life thats illveturs privelage so he has to use whats there corupt it and change it.

Could he take a sheep and make it into a dragon or summet? or is that pushing it too far?

Ñólendil · 08-17-2002, 06:36 PM

Orks were not made from Elves, they were made from Men, despite what The Silmarillion says. The information is in Myths Transformed in Vol. X of the History of Middle-earth.

I quoted the relevent passages in this topic.

Sween · 08-17-2002, 06:38 PM

which one carrys more authority?

Ñólendil · 08-17-2002, 06:39 PM

That depends on who you ask. If you ask me, I will tell you that Tolkien's latest idea about Orks is in Myths Transformed, while the stuff in The Silmarillion derives from earlier sources, mainly the Annals of Beleriand.

HobbitChick88 · 08-17-2002, 07:40 PM

or you could say "both" and everyone would be happy.

BeardofPants · 08-17-2002, 09:08 PM

I think it more than likely that Morgoth experimented with both - twisting elves and men. I'm not sure about the topic question though. I would assume not, though, since they were a poor mockery.

Rána Eressëa · 08-18-2002, 10:44 AM

I always thought they were twisted from both.

Diaxion · 08-18-2002, 11:05 AM

No I don't think Orc's live forever and go to the great halls. That is because an Elf can choose to become mortal. Therefore since the orcs are now evil and deformed elves they have sub-consciously chosen through years of evolution to be mortal.

entss89 · 08-18-2002, 01:56 PM

No way could it be possible for orcs to live for ever, but no one is absoulutly sure so I just wouldn't take my advice for it! later,BYE BYE!

HobbitChick88 · 08-18-2002, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ñólendil
Orks were not made from Elves, they were made from Men, despite what The Silmarillion says. The information is in Myths Transformed in Vol. X of the History of Middle-earth.

I quoted the relevent passages in this topic.

wasn't the History of Middle Earth written by Christopher Tolkien?

BeardofPants · 08-18-2002, 11:27 PM

No. He edited and compiled his fathers work.

HobbitChick88 · 08-19-2002, 10:36 PM

Oh, okeydokie. So Tolkien actually wrote the bit about the orcs being made from men? And he also wrote the bit abput the orcs being made from elves? That's totally messed up, but i guess it could have been both or something.

Ñólendil · 08-20-2002, 02:32 AM

HobbitChick, if you follow my link, it will become more clear. The Orcs-from-Men idea replaced the Orcs-from-Elves one.

HobbitChick88 · 08-20-2002, 10:49 PM

Yeah, I read it, thanx Nolendil! I've thought about it so much, I'm at the point that I don't even really care anymore

. So thanx for helping me out and everything. I think I understand a little better!

08-17-2002, 01:05 PM	#1
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	Do Orcs live forever? They are ment to be twisted form of Elf (am i right?) therefore do they live forever like the elves? And if the die are they sent back to the halls to be reborn (very doubtfull i know) or do they come back as the elfs that they once were (apart from the ones born orc) __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

08-17-2002, 01:11 PM	#2
Faramir Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ithilien Posts: 353	No, they don't live forever. But I do think that they reincarnate, and that's how they multiply so quickly. __________________ This is the Window of the Sunset, Henneth Annun, fairest of all the falls of Ithilien, land of many fountains."-Faramir, Chapter IV, The Two Towers ========================== FRODO LIVES!!! ========================== YODA IS DA MAN!!! ========================== I Love Jesus!

08-17-2002, 05:19 PM	#3
HobbitChick88 Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Sweet Home Alabama Posts: 237	aren't they kind of like the elves, in that they kind of have to be killed to die? __________________ "Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars..." ~The Hobbit "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whose you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." -Joshua 24:15 Step follows step, Hope follows courage. Set your face toward danger Set your heart on victory! "Where is Elizabeth?" "She's safe, just like I promised. She's all set to marry Norrington just like she promised, and you get to die for her just like you promised. So we're all men of our word, really....except for Elizabeth who is, in fact, a woman." ~Will Turner and Jack Sparrow, POTC fROdO LIVeS!!!!

08-17-2002, 05:44 PM	#4
Faramir Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ithilien Posts: 353	I don't think so. Darn 90 second rule!!! __________________ This is the Window of the Sunset, Henneth Annun, fairest of all the falls of Ithilien, land of many fountains."-Faramir, Chapter IV, The Two Towers ========================== FRODO LIVES!!! ========================== YODA IS DA MAN!!! ========================== I Love Jesus!

08-17-2002, 06:06 PM	#5
Archbob the Elder Enting Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 77	It says in the Sim that orcs have the lives of elves. Because it is thought that orcs are Melkor's mockery of elves. __________________ Get Free Stuff

08-17-2002, 06:07 PM	#6
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	i was allways under the impression they were elves that did not travel into the west when valinor called them (something begining with 'a' i think was the name cannot be arsed going to Encolpedia of arda) and they were taken by Melkor and tourturted and chan ged to Orcs but techincally they are still elves if you know what i mean? __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

08-17-2002, 06:36 PM	#8
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Orks were not made from Elves, they were made from Men, despite what The Silmarillion says. The information is in Myths Transformed in Vol. X of the History of Middle-earth. I quoted the relevent passages in this topic. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 08-17-2002 at 06:38 PM.

08-17-2002, 06:38 PM	#9
Sween im quite stupid Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cockermouth Posts: 2,058	which one carrys more authority? __________________ Yeah god hes ok but i would rather be judged by a sheep than that idiot

08-17-2002, 06:39 PM	#10
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	That depends on who you ask. If you ask me, I will tell you that Tolkien's latest idea about Orks is in Myths Transformed, while the stuff in The Silmarillion derives from earlier sources, mainly the Annals of Beleriand. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

08-17-2002, 07:40 PM	#11
HobbitChick88 Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Sweet Home Alabama Posts: 237	or you could say "both" and everyone would be happy. __________________ "Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars..." ~The Hobbit "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whose you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." -Joshua 24:15 Step follows step, Hope follows courage. Set your face toward danger Set your heart on victory! "Where is Elizabeth?" "She's safe, just like I promised. She's all set to marry Norrington just like she promised, and you get to die for her just like you promised. So we're all men of our word, really....except for Elizabeth who is, in fact, a woman." ~Will Turner and Jack Sparrow, POTC fROdO LIVeS!!!!

08-17-2002, 09:08 PM	#12
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	I think it more than likely that Morgoth experimented with both - twisting elves and men. I'm not sure about the topic question though. I would assume not, though, since they were a poor mockery. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-18-2002, 10:44 AM	#13
Rána Eressëa The Rogue Elf Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 1,722	I always thought they were twisted from both.

08-18-2002, 11:05 AM	#14
Diaxion Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 112	No I don't think Orc's live forever and go to the great halls. That is because an Elf can choose to become mortal. Therefore since the orcs are now evil and deformed elves they have sub-consciously chosen through years of evolution to be mortal. __________________ good day

08-18-2002, 01:56 PM	#15
entss89 lord of the ents Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: nc Posts: 539	orcs No way could it be possible for orcs to live for ever, but no one is absoulutly sure so I just wouldn't take my advice for it! later,BYE BYE!

08-18-2002, 11:27 PM	#17
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	No. He edited and compiled his fathers work. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-19-2002, 10:36 PM	#18
HobbitChick88 Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Sweet Home Alabama Posts: 237	Oh, okeydokie. So Tolkien actually wrote the bit about the orcs being made from men? And he also wrote the bit abput the orcs being made from elves? That's totally messed up, but i guess it could have been both or something. __________________ "Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars..." ~The Hobbit "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whose you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." -Joshua 24:15 Step follows step, Hope follows courage. Set your face toward danger Set your heart on victory! "Where is Elizabeth?" "She's safe, just like I promised. She's all set to marry Norrington just like she promised, and you get to die for her just like you promised. So we're all men of our word, really....except for Elizabeth who is, in fact, a woman." ~Will Turner and Jack Sparrow, POTC fROdO LIVeS!!!!

08-20-2002, 02:32 AM	#19
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	HobbitChick, if you follow my link, it will become more clear. The Orcs-from-Men idea replaced the Orcs-from-Elves one. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

08-20-2002, 10:49 PM	#20
HobbitChick88 Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Sweet Home Alabama Posts: 237	Yeah, I read it, thanx Nolendil! I've thought about it so much, I'm at the point that I don't even really care anymore . So thanx for helping me out and everything. I think I understand a little better! __________________ "Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars..." ~The Hobbit "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whose you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." -Joshua 24:15 Step follows step, Hope follows courage. Set your face toward danger Set your heart on victory! "Where is Elizabeth?" "She's safe, just like I promised. She's all set to marry Norrington just like she promised, and you get to die for her just like you promised. So we're all men of our word, really....except for Elizabeth who is, in fact, a woman." ~Will Turner and Jack Sparrow, POTC fROdO LIVeS!!!!

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