What's the difference?

galadriel88 · 08-07-2002, 10:54 AM

OK, just lately I have been confused about this: What's the difference between Orcs, Uruk-Hai, and Nazgul? I always thought that the nazgul were 9 orcs chosen by Sauron to find the 1 ring, and Uruk-hai were half orcs/half men, bred by Saruman.

Radagast The Brown · 08-07-2002, 10:58 AM

let see... the Uruk-Hai were "improve orks" that Saruman did in Isengard. The Nazgul were 9 men that had the 9 rings and Sauron control them.. hope i made it more clear.

Comic Book Guy · 08-07-2002, 02:02 PM

Saruman never originally created the Uruk-Hai, Sauron had Uruk-Hai before the Treason of Isengard.

HobbitChick88 · 08-07-2002, 02:44 PM

Uruk-hai are a cross between orcs and goblin men and were created to be stronger than regulars orcs and also to be a ble to move in the sunlight. Radagast said it just like it is with the Nazgul. They were the nine men to whom Sauron gave the nine rings of power. They became corrupt and evil, then slaves to Sauron, his most trusted and powerful slaves.

galadriel88 · 08-07-2002, 11:40 PM

OK, so - orcs are just...evil creatures, I guess? And Uruk-hai are a cross between orcs and goblin men, which were originally created by Sauron and duplicated by Saruman. And Nazgul were nine kings of men who received the 9 rings and became slaves to their power. I think i get it now, thanx guys!

Dolenloteiel · 08-08-2002, 04:57 PM

orcs were tortured, mutilated elves who could only travel in the dark. Uruk-Hai are "updated" orcs who know no fear or pain and can travel with amazing speed in daylight as well as night. The Nazgul are the 9 Kings of Men who fell under the power of Sauron and are trying to find the Ring of Power

galadriel88 · 08-08-2002, 07:03 PM

Ok, I got it now. Thanks to all who helped!

Ñólendil · 08-08-2002, 07:14 PM

You got some misinformation, galadriel, which Comic Book Guy tried to correct.

The Nazgûl were Men, sorcerer-kings who in the Second Age of the world were ensnared by Sauron the Dark Lord, who gave them each a Ring of Power. They lived on and on, never dying, until their bodies were consumed and they were invisable to mortal eyes, unless they put on raiment of our world. The Uruk-hai are a breed of Orcs, larger than the others, almost the size of Men, and were the greatest of warriors of that dreadful warrior-race.

Some points:

Saruman did not make the Uruk-hai, although many Uruk-hai did serve him. Saruman did not make these Uruk-hai, he merely recruited them.
Uruk-hai are not a cross between Orcs and goblin-men. This is only true in the movie.
Half-orcs do exist, but they are not the same as the Uruk-hai. Half-orcs were first devised by Sauron far back in the Elder Days and this art was rediscovered by Saruman, who breeded Orcs with Men in the late Third Age.
Uruk-hai know both fear and pain, though they are hardier than the lesser breeds, whom they refer to as snaga, which means "slave".
The Orcs were not made from Elves. In Tolkien's latest idea, the Orcs were corrupted Men, not Elves.

galadriel88 · 08-11-2002, 02:47 PM

Oh! Well in that case...

*Orcs are tortured, mutilated men.
*Uruk-hai are a very hardy breed of orc that were recruited by Saruman to serve him.
*Half-orcs were originally created by Sauron and duplicated by Saruman.
*The Nazgul were the 9 kings to whom were given the 9 rings.

OK, do I have it straight now?

Radagast The Brown · 08-11-2002, 02:55 PM

Nolendil, are you sure? cause in the Sil Tolkien wrote that the first orks were made from the elves... explenation? why didn't he re-wrote this part if he decided that they were made from men?

Ñólendil · 08-11-2002, 05:38 PM

Yes Galadriel, you have it right now.

I am quite sure Radagast. There is a lot he didn't rewrite. The entire mythology was to be revised so as to fit with what science has to say about the Universe. He was an old man and there was so much to do and so much to be worried about. He just didn't get around to it. The Silmarillion would have been very different had J. R. R. Tolkien lived long enough to write it himself. There's all sorts of stuff in there that people take for granted that isn't actually "true". A lot of it doesn't reflect J. R. R.'s latest ideas (for various reasons, sometime Christopher overlooked something, sometimes he felt he would have to rewrite too much to respect the latest idea), some of it was written solely by Christopher and so on. Tolkien's final idea on Orcs (that they came from Men) can be found in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed. Morgoth's Ring was Volume X of the History of Middle-earth.

A lot of the stuff in The Silmarillion didn't even come from Silmarillion writings anyway. I'm not sure, but I think most of the stuff about Orcs coming from Elves was found in the Annals of Beleriand (the Grey Annals).

HobbitChick88 · 08-17-2002, 05:16 PM

I think all of this is kind of questionable because it does directly state in the Silarillion that they were from elves, but then, it says otherwise in a different book, so some people will take it one way, and others another way.

Ñólendil · 08-20-2002, 02:57 AM

Quote:

I think all of this is kind of questionable because it does directly state in the Silarillion that they were from elves, but then, it says otherwise in a different book, so some people will take it one way, and others another way.

Granted, it's debatable. But I think too many hold The Silmarillion in too high authority, due to an inadequate understanding of it's history (and Morgoth's Ring and The War of the Jewels is "The History of The Silmarillion"). To me it is pretty simple: early on Tolkien said they were made from Elves and later on after debating with himself and going through various ideas, he decided once and for all that they were made from Men. That the earlier version was printed in The Silmarillion means little to me.

Wayfarer · 08-20-2002, 05:47 PM

This thread reminds me of how clueless you and I were once, dylan. ]: )

At least nobody has asked what color they were, eh?

Sminty_Smeagol · 08-21-2002, 04:23 PM

WHAT COLOR WERE THE URUK HAI?!!!??

JK lol! Anyway, the movie brainwashed me, having finished ROTK 5 days before the movie came out, and haven't read it since. SO - what were the Uruk Hai... I have been believing they were half orc/goblin

-~*Sminty*~-

Ñólendil · 08-22-2002, 05:13 AM

Quote:

This thread reminds me of how clueless you and I were once, dylan. ]: )

Hehe, those were the days, weren't they? Though I don't remember much cluelessness coming out of you.

Sminty, I believe the identity of the Uruk-hai is covered above. But they were Orcs. They were superior soldier Orcs made by Sauron about (I think) 1,000 years before the Lord of the Rings takes place. They were tall (for Orcs), almost man-high, straight, with broad, flat, swart faces. An Uruk orc-chieftain in Mória (yes there were Uruks in Mória) is described as having a red tongue and eyes like coals. This was the Orc who speared Frodo (it was not a Cave-troll, like in the movie). In the books the orc-chieftain leaps into the chamber, blocks a blow from Boromir with a huge hide shield, bears him backwards and knocking him to the ground, ducks a swipe from Aragorn "with the speed of a stricking snake" and pins Frodo against the wall. Sam hacks the spear away, the Orc draws his scimitar and then Aragorn cleaves his head in two with Andúril.

What's dangerous about the color? Most Orcs were sallow-skinned, according to Tolkien, but I have never read of an Uruk who was not swarthy. I suppose they had dark brown skin. Uruks also appear to be quite hairy.

Orcs and Goblins, by the way, are exactly the same thing.

Sminty_Smeagol · 08-22-2002, 07:12 AM

Well how were the orcs made in to uruk hai?

And how, in the movie, could they breed orcs and goblin men if they were the same thing?!

-~*Sminty*~-

BeardofPants · 08-22-2002, 07:39 AM

Uruks were bred by Sauron to be larger and stronger, as well as having the ability to withstand the sun. And as Nolendil has pointed out, they referred to the "lesser" orcs as snaga (slaves.) I'm assuming he did this by corrupting (or manipulating) the breeding stock, thus selecting for the characteristics that he wanted in his warrior orcs.

The movie IS NOT canon. For a start, it implies that Saruman was the one to create uruk-hai. The reason I guess PJ showed those horrible pod things, was to make it visually more easy to understand. If I were you, I'd quit worrying about the movie version of the events.

galadriel88 · 08-22-2002, 08:24 AM

Ditto. All content in the movies are subject to the truths in the books.

Xeta · 08-22-2002, 10:38 AM

I disregard everything in the HoME series as ideas of Tolkien. My view of ME is that goblins are corrupted elves, with some human blood added in later. A kind of "ongoing experiment" on the part of Morgoth, if you will.

08-07-2002, 10:54 AM	#1
galadriel88 Halfwitted Queen of Lothlorien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Far off in a dream Posts: 1,166	What's the difference? OK, just lately I have been confused about this: What's the difference between Orcs, Uruk-Hai, and Nazgul? I always thought that the nazgul were 9 orcs chosen by Sauron to find the 1 ring, and Uruk-hai were half orcs/half men, bred by Saruman. __________________ The beuatiful mind/The beautiful heart/Doesn't deserve the pain/How can I stop the rain? -How Can I Stop the Rain? by Kessid, my new favorite band +Every good thing that comes into my life is only a reflection of the greatest gift of all; the offering of yourself, dear Son of God+ Always remember, you're uniqe, just like everybody else! "The one constant through all the years has been the Trombone. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. Its been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again, but the Trombone has marked the time. This field, this section, this band is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and could be again. Oh, people will come . . . people will most definitely come."

08-07-2002, 10:58 AM	#2
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	let see... the Uruk-Hai were "improve orks" that Saruman did in Isengard. The Nazgul were 9 men that had the 9 rings and Sauron control them.. hope i made it more clear. __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

08-07-2002, 02:44 PM	#4
HobbitChick88 Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Sweet Home Alabama Posts: 237	Uruk-hai are a cross between orcs and goblin men and were created to be stronger than regulars orcs and also to be a ble to move in the sunlight. Radagast said it just like it is with the Nazgul. They were the nine men to whom Sauron gave the nine rings of power. They became corrupt and evil, then slaves to Sauron, his most trusted and powerful slaves. __________________ "Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars..." ~The Hobbit "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whose you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." -Joshua 24:15 Step follows step, Hope follows courage. Set your face toward danger Set your heart on victory! "Where is Elizabeth?" "She's safe, just like I promised. She's all set to marry Norrington just like she promised, and you get to die for her just like you promised. So we're all men of our word, really....except for Elizabeth who is, in fact, a woman." ~Will Turner and Jack Sparrow, POTC fROdO LIVeS!!!!

08-07-2002, 11:40 PM	#5
galadriel88 Halfwitted Queen of Lothlorien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Far off in a dream Posts: 1,166	OK, so - orcs are just...evil creatures, I guess? And Uruk-hai are a cross between orcs and goblin men, which were originally created by Sauron and duplicated by Saruman. And Nazgul were nine kings of men who received the 9 rings and became slaves to their power. I think i get it now, thanx guys! __________________ The beuatiful mind/The beautiful heart/Doesn't deserve the pain/How can I stop the rain? -How Can I Stop the Rain? by Kessid, my new favorite band +Every good thing that comes into my life is only a reflection of the greatest gift of all; the offering of yourself, dear Son of God+ Always remember, you're uniqe, just like everybody else! "The one constant through all the years has been the Trombone. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. Its been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again, but the Trombone has marked the time. This field, this section, this band is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and could be again. Oh, people will come . . . people will most definitely come."

08-08-2002, 04:57 PM	#6
Dolenloteiel I elenfea Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Somewhere in the chaos between the first and second ages! (Actually, CO) Posts: 556	orcs were tortured, mutilated elves who could only travel in the dark. Uruk-Hai are "updated" orcs who know no fear or pain and can travel with amazing speed in daylight as well as night. The Nazgul are the 9 Kings of Men who fell under the power of Sauron and are trying to find the Ring of Power __________________ "Middle Earth is a real place. And it is New Zealand." Sir Ian McKellan **************************** QUESTION AUTHORITY Ask me anything ************************** "I have not failed, I've only found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison ************************** Visit Tolkien RP Site! Need members, RP all three Ages! (UNDER CONSTRUCTION) http://elvellon.suddenlaunch2.com **************************** "Yay, I can hear the voices in my head again!

08-07-2002, 02:02 PM	#3
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	Saruman never originally created the Uruk-Hai, Sauron had Uruk-Hai before the Treason of Isengard.

08-08-2002, 07:03 PM	#7
galadriel88 Halfwitted Queen of Lothlorien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Far off in a dream Posts: 1,166	Ok, I got it now. Thanks to all who helped! __________________ The beuatiful mind/The beautiful heart/Doesn't deserve the pain/How can I stop the rain? -How Can I Stop the Rain? by Kessid, my new favorite band +Every good thing that comes into my life is only a reflection of the greatest gift of all; the offering of yourself, dear Son of God+ Always remember, you're uniqe, just like everybody else! "The one constant through all the years has been the Trombone. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. Its been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again, but the Trombone has marked the time. This field, this section, this band is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and could be again. Oh, people will come . . . people will most definitely come."

08-08-2002, 07:14 PM	#8
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	You got some misinformation, galadriel, which Comic Book Guy tried to correct. The Nazgûl were Men, sorcerer-kings who in the Second Age of the world were ensnared by Sauron the Dark Lord, who gave them each a Ring of Power. They lived on and on, never dying, until their bodies were consumed and they were invisable to mortal eyes, unless they put on raiment of our world. The Uruk-hai are a breed of Orcs, larger than the others, almost the size of Men, and were the greatest of warriors of that dreadful warrior-race. Some points: Saruman did not make the Uruk-hai, although many Uruk-hai did serve him. Saruman did not make these Uruk-hai, he merely recruited them. Uruk-hai are not a cross between Orcs and goblin-men. This is only true in the movie. Half-orcs do exist, but they are not the same as the Uruk-hai. Half-orcs were first devised by Sauron far back in the Elder Days and this art was rediscovered by Saruman, who breeded Orcs with Men in the late Third Age. Uruk-hai know both fear and pain, though they are hardier than the lesser breeds, whom they refer to as snaga, which means "slave". The Orcs were not made from Elves. In Tolkien's latest idea, the Orcs were corrupted Men, not Elves. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 08-08-2002 at 07:15 PM.

08-11-2002, 02:47 PM	#9
galadriel88 Halfwitted Queen of Lothlorien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Far off in a dream Posts: 1,166	Oh! Well in that case... Orcs are tortured, mutilated men. Uruk-hai are a very hardy breed of orc that were recruited by Saruman to serve him. Half-orcs were originally created by Sauron and duplicated by Saruman. The Nazgul were the 9 kings to whom were given the 9 rings. OK, do I have it straight now? __________________ The beuatiful mind/The beautiful heart/Doesn't deserve the pain/How can I stop the rain? -How Can I Stop the Rain? by Kessid, my new favorite band +Every good thing that comes into my life is only a reflection of the greatest gift of all; the offering of yourself, dear Son of God+ Always remember, you're uniqe, just like everybody else! "The one constant through all the years has been the Trombone. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. Its been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again, but the Trombone has marked the time. This field, this section, this band is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and could be again. Oh, people will come . . . people will most definitely come."

08-11-2002, 02:55 PM	#10
Radagast The Brown Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Israel Posts: 6,975	Nolendil, are you sure? cause in the Sil Tolkien wrote that the first orks were made from the elves... explenation? why didn't he re-wrote this part if he decided that they were made from men? __________________ Lalala... poof! AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

08-11-2002, 05:38 PM	#11
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Yes Galadriel, you have it right now. I am quite sure Radagast. There is a lot he didn't rewrite. The entire mythology was to be revised so as to fit with what science has to say about the Universe. He was an old man and there was so much to do and so much to be worried about. He just didn't get around to it. The Silmarillion would have been very different had J. R. R. Tolkien lived long enough to write it himself. There's all sorts of stuff in there that people take for granted that isn't actually "true". A lot of it doesn't reflect J. R. R.'s latest ideas (for various reasons, sometime Christopher overlooked something, sometimes he felt he would have to rewrite too much to respect the latest idea), some of it was written solely by Christopher and so on. Tolkien's final idea on Orcs (that they came from Men) can be found in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed. Morgoth's Ring was Volume X of the History of Middle-earth. A lot of the stuff in The Silmarillion didn't even come from Silmarillion writings anyway. I'm not sure, but I think most of the stuff about Orcs coming from Elves was found in the Annals of Beleriand (the Grey Annals). __________________ Falmon -- Dylan Last edited by Ñólendil : 08-11-2002 at 05:40 PM.

08-17-2002, 05:16 PM	#12
HobbitChick88 Elven Warrior Join Date: May 2002 Location: Sweet Home Alabama Posts: 237	I think all of this is kind of questionable because it does directly state in the Silarillion that they were from elves, but then, it says otherwise in a different book, so some people will take it one way, and others another way. __________________ "Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars..." ~The Hobbit "And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whose you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." -Joshua 24:15 Step follows step, Hope follows courage. Set your face toward danger Set your heart on victory! "Where is Elizabeth?" "She's safe, just like I promised. She's all set to marry Norrington just like she promised, and you get to die for her just like you promised. So we're all men of our word, really....except for Elizabeth who is, in fact, a woman." ~Will Turner and Jack Sparrow, POTC fROdO LIVeS!!!!

08-20-2002, 05:47 PM	#14
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	This thread reminds me of how clueless you and I were once, dylan. ]: ) At least nobody has asked what color they were, eh? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

08-21-2002, 04:23 PM	#15
Sminty_Smeagol Manic Cardboard-Box Dweller Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In a house Posts: 1,071	WHAT COLOR WERE THE URUK HAI?!!!?? JK lol! Anyway, the movie brainwashed me, having finished ROTK 5 days before the movie came out, and haven't read it since. SO - what were the Uruk Hai... I have been believing they were half orc/goblin -~Sminty~-

08-22-2002, 07:12 AM	#17
Sminty_Smeagol Manic Cardboard-Box Dweller Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In a house Posts: 1,071	uruks, orcs, golbins... augh! Well how were the orcs made in to uruk hai? And how, in the movie, could they breed orcs and goblin men if they were the same thing?! -~Sminty~-

08-22-2002, 07:39 AM	#18
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Uruks were bred by Sauron to be larger and stronger, as well as having the ability to withstand the sun. And as Nolendil has pointed out, they referred to the "lesser" orcs as snaga (slaves.) I'm assuming he did this by corrupting (or manipulating) the breeding stock, thus selecting for the characteristics that he wanted in his warrior orcs. The movie IS NOT canon. For a start, it implies that Saruman was the one to create uruk-hai. The reason I guess PJ showed those horrible pod things, was to make it visually more easy to understand. If I were you, I'd quit worrying about the movie version of the events. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

08-22-2002, 08:24 AM	#19
galadriel88 Halfwitted Queen of Lothlorien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Far off in a dream Posts: 1,166	Ditto. All content in the movies are subject to the truths in the books. __________________ The beuatiful mind/The beautiful heart/Doesn't deserve the pain/How can I stop the rain? -How Can I Stop the Rain? by Kessid, my new favorite band +Every good thing that comes into my life is only a reflection of the greatest gift of all; the offering of yourself, dear Son of God+ Always remember, you're uniqe, just like everybody else! "The one constant through all the years has been the Trombone. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. Its been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again, but the Trombone has marked the time. This field, this section, this band is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and could be again. Oh, people will come . . . people will most definitely come."

08-22-2002, 10:38 AM	#20
Xeta Hobbit Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 27	I disregard everything in the HoME series as ideas of Tolkien. My view of ME is that goblins are corrupted elves, with some human blood added in later. A kind of "ongoing experiment" on the part of Morgoth, if you will.

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