Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth

[Sister Golden Hair]

I doubt this thread will get much response but here goes. First, How many of you have read Morgoth's Ring, and Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth? In the Athrabeth Andreth make a statement saying"Do candles pitty moths?" Finrod replies by saying "Or moths candles when the wind blows them out." I was wondering if anyone could explain the meaning of this?

I understand what Andreth is saying I think. The light of the candle attracts the moth and when the moth comes to the candle it gets burned. What I don't understand is what Finrod is saying. Does anyone know the meaning of it? Nolendil, MM, somebody, anybody?

[The Ringbearer]

I have no idea where to get a hold on one of those books , but I think I understand what they mean.

"Do candles pity moths?" Do the candles feel sorry or sad when the moths get burned and/or die?

"Or moths candles when the wind blows them out? Or do the moths mind when the candles "die" ?

Depending on what they were discussing just then, it might mean: do enemies care when the other suffers? Just a guess, I need to get one of those books.

[Mordomin]

Candles and moths? I thought 'flaming' was against forum policy...http://www.contrabandent.com/cwm/s/o...gue/crazy3.gif

[Elvet]

I haven't read Morgoth's Ring yet, but I'll comment on the phrases even though I'm not aware of their context.
They have a sense of poignancy about them, somewhat of a sense of inevetibility. As if Finrod is saying would pity make a difference.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Pretty good interpretations so far. For those of you who have not read Morgoth's Ring, These statement that are made between Finrod and Andreth surround a conversation concerning the love between Finrod's brother Aegnor, and Andreth who is a mortal woman. Aegnor turned his back on Andreth because of the fate that devided them as Elf and Mortal, which is the only instance in Tolkien where we have an Elven Male in love with a Human Female. Andreth is very distraught as she is discussing this with Finrod.

Anymore ideas? This is intriguing.

[Elvet]

I have looked up the passage in the book. It sounds like a tale of unrequited love. The moth is Andreth ( woman ), the flame is Aegnor ( elf ). I find it interesting that in this instance, the elf does not give up his immortality for the woman he loves, but turns away from her instead, unable to deal with the gulf of time between them. She bitterly says do elves pity men? Finrod has previously described 2 types of pity: one of ' kinship recognised ' the other of ' fortune perceived ' Finrod may be trying to say that Aegnor doesn't pity her because she does not have his immortality but rather because that his true love will not be with him always. In other words, the same as she would mourn Aegnor
if his demise preceeded hers.
SGH, thank you for bringing this lovely story to my attention.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Elvet, you may have hit the nail on the head here. I believe that on the next page or so, Finrod says something about Aegnor's demise. Something to the effect of "too soon in the north wind his flame will go out." or something like that. That statement can then be refered back to the candle moth metaphor, placing Andreth in the role of the moth and Aegnor in the role of the candle, or flame. It is confusing though why Aegnor turned away from Andreth, considering he died before her. They certianly could have had a brief life together, but perhaps he wished to spare both of them the pain of that loss since they would not die together or at the same time, but even though he chose not to be with her, he chose to remain in Mandos to the end of Arda and not be re-embodied and live again because of her.

[Ñólendil]

Here's the context of the quotes:

'I have not asked for comfort,' said Andreth. 'For what do I need it?'

'For the doom of Men that has touched thee as a woman,' said Finrod. 'Dost thou think that I do not know? Is he not my brother dearly loved? Aedgnor: Aikanár, the Sharp-flame, swift and eager. And not long are the years since you first met, and your hands touched in this darkness. Yet then thou wet a maiden, brave and eager, in the morning upon the high hills of Dorthonion.'

'Say on!' said Andreth. 'Say: who art now but a wise-woman, alone, and age that shall not touch him has already set winter's grey in thy hair! But say not thou to me, for so he once did!'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'That is the bitterness, beloved adaneth, woman of Men, is it not? that has run through all your words. If I could speak any comfort, you would deem it lordly from one on my side of the sundering doom. But what can I say, save to remind you of the Hope that you yourself have revealed?'

'I did not say that it was ever my hope,' answered Andreth. 'And even were it so, I would stiull cry: why should this hurt come here and now? Why should we love you, and why should ye love us (if ye do), and yet set the gulf between?'

'Because were so made, close kin,' said Finrod. 'But we did not make ourselves, and therefore we, the Eldar, did not set the gulf. Nay, adaneth, were are not lordly in this, but pitiful [i.e., filled with pity, compassionate]. That word will displease thee. Yet pity is of two kinds one is of kinship recognized, and is near to love; the other is of difference of fortune perceived, and is near to pride. I speak of the former.'

'Speak of neither to me!' said Andreth. 'I desire neither. I was young and I looked on his flame, and now I am old and lost. He was young and his flame leaped towards me, but he turned away, and he is young still. Do candles pity moths?'

'Or moths candles, when the blows them out?' said Finrod. 'Adaneth, I tell thee, Aikanár the Sharp-flame loved thee. For they sake now he will never take the hand of any bride of his own kindre, but live alone to the end, remembering the morning in the hills of Dorthonion. But too soon in the Northwind his flame will go out! Foresight is given to the Eldar in many things not far off, though seldom of joy, and I say to thee thou shalt live long in the order of your kind, and he will go forth before thee and he will not wish to return.'

Then Andreth stoof up and stretched her hands to the fire. 'Then why did he turn away? Why leave me while I had still a few good years to spend?'

'Alas!' said Finrod. 'I fear the truth will not satisfy thee. The Eldar have one kind, and ye another; and each judges the other by themselves -- until they learjn, as do few. This is time of war, Andreth, and in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child; but prepare for deatyh -- or for flight. Aegnor has no trust (nor have I) in this siege of Angband that it will last long; and then what will become of this land? If his heart rules, he would have wished to take thee and flee far away, east or south, forsaking his kin, and thine. Love and loyalty hold him to his. What of thee to thine? Thou hast said thyself that there is no escape by flight within the bounds of the world.'

'For on year, one, of the flame I would have given all: kin, youth, and hope itself: adaneth I am,' said Andreth.

'That he knew,' said Finrod; 'and he withdrew and did not grasp what lay to his hand: elda he is. For such barters are paid for in anguish that cannot be guessed, until it comes, and in ignorance rather than in courage the Eldar judge that they are made.

'Nay, adaneth, if any marriage can be between our kindred and thine, then it shall be for some high purpose of Doom. Brief it will be and hard at the end. Yea, the least cruel fate that could befall would that death should soon end it.'

'But the end is always cruel -- for Men,' said Andreth. 'I would not have troubled him, when my short youth was spent. I would not have hobbled as a hag after his bright feet, when I could no longer run beside him!'

'Maybe not,' said Finrod. 'So you feel now. But do you think of him? He would not have run before thee. He would have stayed at thy side to uphold thee. Then pity though woudst have had in every hour, pity inescapable. He would not have thee so shamed.

'Andreth adaneth, the life and love of the Eldar dwells much in memory; and we (if not ye) would rather have a memory that is fair but unfinished than one that goes on to a grievous end. Now he will ever remember thee in the sun of morning, and that alst evening by the water of Aeluin in which he saw they face mirrored with a star caught in thy hair -- ever, until the North-wind brings the night of his falme. Yea, and after that, sitting in the House of Mandos in the Halls of Awaiting until the end of Arda.'

'And what shall I remember?' said she. 'And when I go to what halls shall I come? To a darkness in which even the memory of the sharp flame shall be quenched? Even the memory of rejection. That at least.'

Finrod sighed and stood up. 'The Eldar have no healing words for such thoughts, adaneth,' he said. 'But would you wish that Elves and Men had never met? Is the light of the flame, which otherwise you would never have seen, of no worth even now? You believe yourselve scorned? Put away at least that thought, which comes out of the Darkness, and then our speech together will not have been wholly in vain. Farewell!'

You actually need more, I think, to get the full picture. When Andreth said "Do candles pity moths?' she is speaking about Aegnor and herself. The candle is Aegnor and she herself is the moth. She believes herself scorned; "he turned away, and he young still" she says. She has been drawn to his flame and has been burned, as Sister Golden Hair rightly said. But Finrod responds out of the midst of, I believe, his ominous foresight with "Or moths candles, when the wind blows them out?". Twice late he speaks of the North-wind: "But too soon in the North-wind his flame will go out!" and " -- ever, until the North0wind brings the night of his flame." Fourty-six years after this conversation, Aegnor met the onset of the Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame, and was burned to death. Finrod is reminding Andreth with his comment that she is not the only one who is suffering and she will not be the only one. Aegnor will soon die and go to Mandos, while she will live on.

The North-wind will blow out the candle and the moth will be left alone.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Great analogy Nolendil. Since you posted all the sources from the book, would you care to try figuring out another one? This one is also another I don't understand.

The Eldar have one kind, and ye another; and each judges the other by themselves -- until they learn, as do few.

Thoughts please.

Elvet, you are more then welcome. It is a lovely, but sad story isn't it?

[olsonm]

Finrod is saying that Andreth is judging Aegnor by her own cultural (human) standards. But Aegnor is an elf. Finrod then goes on to explain how elves act in a time of war. I don't think Aegnor could bare the thought of watching Andreth grow old and die. Neither could he flee with her and abandon both their kindreds. Sadness.

When he says; "until they learn, as do few.", I believe he may mean that few elves or men truly learn the ways of the other.

[Sister Golden Hair]

When he says; "until they learn, as do few.", I believe he may mean that few elves or men truly learn the ways of the other.

I think you're right here. The Elves have their way and humans have theirs, and I think he means that their kindreds are so alike, but yet so different that they never wholey learn the ways of each other because their unions are rare, which may be where the "as do few" reference comes from.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
I think you're right here. The Elves have their way and humans have theirs, and I think he means that their kindreds are so alike, but yet so different that they never wholey learn the ways of each other because their unions are rare, which may be where the "as do few" reference comes from.

I agree, SGH. (BTW, hi, I'm new here but have been reading posts for a few months with great enjoyment, and was happy to see a thread on the Athrabeth.) I have been in many cross-cultural situations and have seen where an innocent action on one person's side has been totally misunderstood by the person from another culture.

Andreth's view is "let's enjoy our time together while I am young because we love each other so much, then I won't bother him anymore" ("I would not have troubled him, when my short youth was spent"), but she didn't realize that he would not let her leave him alone because he loved her too much ("He would have stayed at thy side to uphold thee").

Really, really interesting story - gives such a good feel of two very similar but still very different cultures coming together. And Finrod is such a great guy! *runs over to Finrod Is Coolest Elven King Thread to check latest posting*

[Sister Golden Hair]

Welcome to Entmoot Rian. I am so glad you brought my thread back. The Athrabeth is one of my favorite works of Tolkien. A very moving piece of work. And yes, Finrod is a great guy. My favorite charachter.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Something else I am wondering. At the end of the story Finrod tells Andreth not to weep. I am quoting from memory so it may not be exact but he says something like "But I may as well tell thee not to weep. for he is a warrior Andreth, and a spirit of wrath. And with every stroke he deals, he sees the enemy that long ago did thee this hurt." This is Finrod telling Andreth again that Aegnor is going to die. I think this passage has the sound of self sacrifice in it. Do you think that Aegnor gave his life in vengance for Andreth's hurt caused by the enemy, or did he just fall plainly defending his people? Remember that Angrod also died in the fires of Thangordrum, so it wasn't like they died in some great sword fight like the Athrabeth implies. What are your views? Did he die for Andreth, his people, or both?

[Rían]

hmmm, I'm going to have to think about that a bit - there's a lot going on there, and I think I'll have to wait until the kids are in bed to get some thinking time (I'm in the middle of after-school homework and snack time, and just took a quick peek at this thread because I like the Athrabeth so much!)

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
hmmm, I'm going to have to think about that a bit - there's a lot going on there, and I think I'll have to wait until the kids are in bed to get some thinking time (I'm in the middle of after-school homework and snack time, and just took a quick peek at this thread because I like the Athrabeth so much!)

Anxiously awaiting your reply.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Do you think that Aegnor gave his life in vengance for Andreth's hurt caused by the enemy, or did he just fall plainly defending his people? Remember that Angrod also died in the fires of Thangordrum, so it wasn't like they died in some great sword fight like the Athrabeth implies. What are your views? Did he die for Andreth, his people, or both?

I think Aegnor hated Morgoth even more than most elves because in a way, the war (which was because of Morgoth) kept him from Andreth. It seems that Finrod gives as Aegnor's main reason not to wed Andreth the fact that it was a time of war, and for the Eldar, "the Elves do not wed or bear child" in those times. Perhaps, if there was not a war, this would have been the first union of elf and human. And because of Aegnor's love for Andreth, Finrod states very positively (I'm sure he spoke with Aegnor) that Aegnor will not take a wife from his own kindred, and will not wish to return to Middle Earth.

I think, therefore, that he fought with more abandon and risk than would an elf with a wife and children. Middle Earth had less attraction for him, and the peace of Valinor probably more. I don't think he would throw his life away on purpose, but I think he would certainly volunteer to "lead the charge," as it were.

Really fills in a lot of very touching history for a character who was previously just a name (and always with his brother, Angrod!) in the Sil!!

Do you like how Finrod changes to using "thee" and "thou" when he gets to the very personal and tragic subject of her relationship with Aegnor? It seems so tender and loving for him to do this as the brother of the one she loved. Really beautiful writing.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I think Aegnor hated Morgoth even more than most elves because in a way, the war (which was because of Morgoth) kept him from Andreth. It seems that Finrod gives as Aegnor's main reason not to wed Andreth the fact that it was a time of war, and for the Eldar, "the Elves do not wed or bear child" in those times.

Well, I think we have some inconsistancies here. At the beginning of the Athrabeth, Tolkien states that when Finrod was visiting Andreth, it was during the Long Peace, but at the end he is going to the Seige. He also talks about the breaking of the Siege, which doesn't happen until many years later in the Dagor Bragalloch.

[i]I think, therefore, that he fought with more abandon and risk than would an elf with a wife and children. Middle Earth had less attraction for him, and the peace of Valinor probably more.[/B]

He must not have had a desire for Valinor either. He chose not to return from Mandos.

[i]Do you like how Finrod changes to using "thee" and "thou" when he gets to the very personal and tragic subject of her relationship with Aegnor? It seems so tender and loving for him to do this as the brother of the one she loved. Really beautiful writing. [/B]

It's interesting that you bring this up. I had a friend on another forum that believed at first that Finrod was in love with Andreth and she specificly brought up this because of the "thees and thous" I of course told her that Finrod loved Andreth in great friendship only. It is lovely though.

[Rían]

[i]Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
He must not have had a desire for Valinor either. He chose not to return from Mandos.
[/B]

Whoops - sorry, meant Mandos, not Valinor

Have to get to the rest of your comment later - enjoying the discussion!

[Rían]

DRAT! Now I have to look up dates! (I was always terrible with dates in History classes!) *gets paper, pencil, and copy of Sil held together with packing tape* ... hroom, hroom ... *thinks of starting thread "how many pieces are your tolkien books in, and what do you use to hold them together with?"* ... Ah, yes!

Yes, it was not a time of war like one of the big battles, but things were certainly still dangerous - "and war never wholly ceased in all that time of the Siege, for Morgoth devised new evils and ever and anon he would make trial of his enemies." (from "Of the Return of the Noldor" chapter, pg. 136 in mine - do we have the same edition??)

Also, Aegnor and Angrod dwelt very close to Thangorodrim, and I'm sure were much more aware of impending doom - "for they dwelt in regions whence Thangorodrim could be descried, and the threat of Morgoth was present to their thought." That's why they were the only ones to agree with Fingolfin that they should fight Morgoth. (from "Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin").

Also, in the Athrabeth war/marriage quote, Finrod says explicitly "This IS time of war" (emphasis mine), so apparently he considered it a time of war, and "in such days the Elves do not wed or bear child ...". Why would he say this if he did not think it applied to her situation?

Again, "Aegnor has no trust ... in this siege of Angband that it will last long ..." I think, being so close to the situation, that he really has a bad feeling about things.

So that's where I was coming from with my thoughts about the situation. What do you think?

p.s. - I've heard about something called "The Annals of Beleriand". Do you know anything about that? If so, is it worth getting? Is it part of the HoME series? *I will NOT end up with all the HoME books! I will NOT end up with all the HoME books! I will .. oh well*

What a long post! Looking forward to your reply ...