Where will this end????

jerseydevil · 06-12-2002, 02:17 PM

WALNUT CREEK, California (Reuters) -- A 13-year-old California boy who was facing a possible eight years in juvenile prison for a spitball attack on a fellow student was given a much lighter sentence Thursday -- although he will still log some time behind bars.
More.....

I do admit the person they hit in the eye required surgery, but how many "innocent" things happen everyday that end up getting someone hurt. Using this to "teach the boys a lesson" I think is wrong.

Things are just getting out of hand - from kindergartners getting suspended for sexual harrassment to 1st and 2nd graders getting suspended for "shooting" someone with a paper gun while playing cops and robbers.

I'd hate to think about how many times I might have been facing jail if I was a child living in todays society. I never did spit balls - but I tried shooting rubber bands, playing cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, sword fighting, etc.

Adults reactions to these kind of things are so ridiculous it's getting to be funny.

webwizard333 · 06-12-2002, 02:44 PM

Though in some cases it has gotten out of hand, there are some good reasons for this. For instance, one of my teachers got a gun pulled on her in class many years ago. She took it ou of his hand and didn't think twice about it. Now, the kids actually shoot the guns. Then afterwards, many signs are found that if noticed could have brought about prevention. I think the punishments are too extreme, but the teachers and other faculty do have good reasons for being afraid. Still, there is a difference between paranoia and common sense (kindergartners committing sexual harrasment?!) that is get crossed a lot more.

galadriel88 · 06-12-2002, 05:26 PM

I agree with JD. 50 years ago, this case would have been laughed out of court! Give me a break folks. If shooting spitballs is cause for jail time, what's next??? Tapping someone who has a sunburn on the shoulder????

emplynx · 06-12-2002, 05:58 PM

I think I read this exact same post somewhere....

noldo · 06-12-2002, 06:13 PM

Blame the parents.

jerseydevil · 06-12-2002, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by emplynx
I think I read this exact same post somewhere....

You may be right - but I have no idea where.

jerseydevil · 06-12-2002, 06:41 PM

I think I have the solution. Let's all go out and file lawsuits against our parents for having the nerve to bring us into such an unsafe world.

Personally I think they should have thought things out a little more and made sure everything was 100% safe. I think this is negligence on their part. We can get the most for psychological damage, so we'll have to come up with things that support that argument.

Darth Tater · 06-12-2002, 06:53 PM

Welcome to the world of zero tolerance, something that's only good when it applies to the Catholic church

***azalea*** · 06-12-2002, 07:24 PM

Playing devil's advocate: Maybe it will end when people stop being violent toward others.

I bet that kid will never throw anything at anyone at school anymore.

There were plenty of bullies when I went to school who I wish had been subjected to a zero tolerance policy.

If a Kindergartener did something to another child that was bad enough to be called sexual abuse or whatever, it sounds like that kid is ready for an evaluation. He (or she) might be sexually abused himself.

Do you think parents should be held legally or criminally responsible for their children's behavior if it crosses the line? (For instance, in the case of the first grader that shot and killed his classmate at school with a gun he brought from home, or in the case of the Columbine massacre?)

jerseydevil · 06-12-2002, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea
If a Kindergartener did something to another child that was bad enough to be called sexual abuse or whatever, it sounds like that kid is ready for an evaluation. He (or she) might be sexually abused himself.

Do you think parents should be held legally or criminally responsible for their children's behavior if it crosses the line? (For instance, in the case of the first grader that shot and killed his classmate at school with a gun he brought from home, or in the case of the Columbine massacre?)

He gave a girl a kiss on the cheek and the teachers saw it. The school had a policy that any physical contact between students was considered sexual abuse. There was a huge outrage about the stupidity of the whole thing.

And no - I do not think parents should be held responsible. In some case maybe - but not this zero tolerance crap that takes away intelligent decision making. Take this as an instance - a high school student tells his parents that he's going over a friends house to spend the night. He actually plans on going to a party. He gets drunk - gets in his car and kills someone in a head on collison. Under zero tolerance - most likely charges would be brought against the parents. Should they go to jail for their child lying to them? They could have been the greatest parents in the world - it might have been the first time their son had even drank - but now they're charge with his crime? Put the responsibility where it belongs. Since owning guns aren't illegal - I don't think under your columbine scenario that the parents should be held responsible. In the first grader scenario - most likely.

Things aren't black and white and courts should be able to make intelligent decisions.

***azalea*** · 06-12-2002, 07:56 PM

Hey, we agree here! I, too believe in intellegent decision making. The cases you mentioned are absurd, but there is a place for punishment for breaking rules. The best thing to do would be to take each grievance on a case by case basis, but that further burdens the already burdened public schools. Private schools have it easy -- they can pick and choose their students and expel without apology or hassal anyone who breaks their rules!

***HOBBIT*** · 06-12-2002, 08:23 PM

Zero Tolerance policies are rediculous. For example there is NO SUCH THING as self defense at my school.

jerseydevil · 06-12-2002, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by azalea
Private schools have it easy -- they can pick and choose their students and expel without apology or hassal anyone who breaks their rules!

Public schools kick students out too. There was just a case where an honor roll student - one month before graduation, left a knife in his truck after going on a hunting trip over the weekend. He was kicked out of school - no questions asked - zero tolerance. The reporter asked the principle what the student was to do now - his answer, "I don't care - he broke the rules and all I know is that he's not coming back here." The senior had a scholarship and everything that he had to give up and his family couldn't afford to pay for college.

LuthienTinuviel · 06-12-2002, 09:54 PM

some cases are absurd, aren't they?
i think it's cute when little kids kiss each other..

i mean, there is a line that you cross though, if a kindergartener was rabbing or touching a little girl, then i would at least give him a stern talking to and maybe a week out of school... but i would never expell someone even for that kind of touching at that age.
hmm this brings another topic to mind.

**crickhollow** · 06-13-2002, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Adults reactions to these kind of things are so ridiculous it's getting to be funny.

It's not funny anymore, but I guess you have to either laugh or cry...

jerseydevil · 06-13-2002, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crickhollow
It's not funny anymore, but I guess you have to either laugh or cry...

It's funny in the way that adults can be so stupid and babyish about things. Adults today are even easily offended by words. But I do agree - it is getting way out of hand and isn't really funny anymore. It hasn't been funny for a long time.

There used to be the poem...

Sticks and stones may break my bones
but words will never hurt me.

But it seems as if most adults today have forgotten that. Everyone wants to sue over anything today.

jerseydevil · 06-13-2002, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Zero Tolerance policies are rediculous. For example there is NO SUCH THING as self defense at my school.

I just thought about the movie "Bells of St Mary". It's takes place in a Catholic school and they have a scene where Ingrid Bergman (who plays the Mother Superior) teaches a student, who is constantly getting beat up, how to defend himself. She even gets a a book on boxing to teach him how to fight. It's strange how much things have changed.

Finmandos · 06-13-2002, 06:24 PM

Interestingly enough, in most of the cases you mentioned, jerseydevil, the student who was punished was a male. These schools don't seem to realize that boys will be boys.

noldo · 06-13-2002, 06:35 PM

Yeah, it's common to the modern school facility to equalize the needs of boys and girls too much. Some boys really get kicked for not fitting the same models of behaviour as girls.

I was never like that, though.

***azalea*** · 06-13-2002, 06:52 PM

Which is why separation of the sexes in school is not a bad idea. Boys and girls learn differently and behave differently. Separate classes would be beneficial for both.

06-12-2002, 02:17 PM	#1
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	Where will this end???? WALNUT CREEK, California (Reuters) -- A 13-year-old California boy who was facing a possible eight years in juvenile prison for a spitball attack on a fellow student was given a much lighter sentence Thursday -- although he will still log some time behind bars. More..... I do admit the person they hit in the eye required surgery, but how many "innocent" things happen everyday that end up getting someone hurt. Using this to "teach the boys a lesson" I think is wrong. Things are just getting out of hand - from kindergartners getting suspended for sexual harrassment to 1st and 2nd graders getting suspended for "shooting" someone with a paper gun while playing cops and robbers. I'd hate to think about how many times I might have been facing jail if I was a child living in todays society. I never did spit balls - but I tried shooting rubber bands, playing cops and robbers, cowboys and indians, sword fighting, etc. Adults reactions to these kind of things are so ridiculous it's getting to be funny. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide

06-12-2002, 02:44 PM	#2
webwizard333 Elf Lord Join Date: May 2001 Location: myob Posts: 587	Though in some cases it has gotten out of hand, there are some good reasons for this. For instance, one of my teachers got a gun pulled on her in class many years ago. She took it ou of his hand and didn't think twice about it. Now, the kids actually shoot the guns. Then afterwards, many signs are found that if noticed could have brought about prevention. I think the punishments are too extreme, but the teachers and other faculty do have good reasons for being afraid. Still, there is a difference between paranoia and common sense (kindergartners committing sexual harrasment?!) that is get crossed a lot more. __________________ Boo!

06-12-2002, 05:26 PM	#3
galadriel88 Halfwitted Queen of Lothlorien Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Far off in a dream Posts: 1,166	I agree with JD. 50 years ago, this case would have been laughed out of court! Give me a break folks. If shooting spitballs is cause for jail time, what's next??? Tapping someone who has a sunburn on the shoulder???? __________________ The beuatiful mind/The beautiful heart/Doesn't deserve the pain/How can I stop the rain? -How Can I Stop the Rain? by Kessid, my new favorite band +Every good thing that comes into my life is only a reflection of the greatest gift of all; the offering of yourself, dear Son of God+ Always remember, you're uniqe, just like everybody else! "The one constant through all the years has been the Trombone. America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. Its been erased like a blackboard, rebuilt and erased again, but the Trombone has marked the time. This field, this section, this band is a part of our past. It reminds us of all that once was good, and could be again. Oh, people will come . . . people will most definitely come."

06-12-2002, 06:13 PM	#5
noldo Elven Icon Maker Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Finland Posts: 517	Blame the parents. __________________ "I can't even think straight!" "Orange is the new pink, and men are the new women."

06-12-2002, 06:41 PM	#7
jerseydevil I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Plainsboro, NJ Posts: 9,431	I think I have the solution. Let's all go out and file lawsuits against our parents for having the nerve to bring us into such an unsafe world. Personally I think they should have thought things out a little more and made sure everything was 100% safe. I think this is negligence on their part. We can get the most for psychological damage, so we'll have to come up with things that support that argument. __________________ Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-12-2002 at 06:45 PM.

06-12-2002, 05:58 PM	#4
emplynx Self-Appointed Lord of the Free Peoples of the General Messages Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 1,214	I think I read this exact same post somewhere....

06-12-2002, 06:53 PM	#8
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	Welcome to the world of zero tolerance, something that's only good when it applies to the Catholic church __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

06-12-2002, 07:24 PM	#9
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Playing devil's advocate: Maybe it will end when people stop being violent toward others. I bet that kid will never throw anything at anyone at school anymore. There were plenty of bullies when I went to school who I wish had been subjected to a zero tolerance policy. If a Kindergartener did something to another child that was bad enough to be called sexual abuse or whatever, it sounds like that kid is ready for an evaluation. He (or she) might be sexually abused himself. Do you think parents should be held legally or criminally responsible for their children's behavior if it crosses the line? (For instance, in the case of the first grader that shot and killed his classmate at school with a gun he brought from home, or in the case of the Columbine massacre?)

06-12-2002, 07:56 PM	#11
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Hey, we agree here! I, too believe in intellegent decision making. The cases you mentioned are absurd, but there is a place for punishment for breaking rules. The best thing to do would be to take each grievance on a case by case basis, but that further burdens the already burdened public schools. Private schools have it easy -- they can pick and choose their students and expel without apology or hassal anyone who breaks their rules!

06-12-2002, 08:23 PM	#12
*HOBBIT* Saviour of Entmoot Admiral Join Date: Nov 1999 Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.) Posts: 61,986	Zero Tolerance policies are rediculous. For example there is NO SUCH THING as self defense at my school. __________________ President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares!

06-12-2002, 09:54 PM	#14
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	some cases are absurd, aren't they? i think it's cute when little kids kiss each other.. i mean, there is a line that you cross though, if a kindergartener was rabbing or touching a little girl, then i would at least give him a stern talking to and maybe a week out of school... but i would never expell someone even for that kind of touching at that age. hmm this brings another topic to mind. __________________

06-13-2002, 06:24 PM	#18
Finmandos Sapling Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 9	Interestingly enough, in most of the cases you mentioned, jerseydevil, the student who was punished was a male. These schools don't seem to realize that boys will be boys.

06-13-2002, 06:35 PM	#19
noldo Elven Icon Maker Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Finland Posts: 517	Yeah, it's common to the modern school facility to equalize the needs of boys and girls too much. Some boys really get kicked for not fitting the same models of behaviour as girls. I was never like that, though. __________________ "I can't even think straight!" "Orange is the new pink, and men are the new women."

06-13-2002, 06:52 PM	#20
*azalea* Long lost mooter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 3,342	Which is why separation of the sexes in school is not a bad idea. Boys and girls learn differently and behave differently. Separate classes would be beneficial for both.