Denethor questioning Pippin

[afro-elf]

Gandalf mentions Pippin did well during his interrogation.

So did frodo with Faramir but frodo had not swore fealty to faramir so had more leeway to skirt certain answers



gandalf told pip not to mention the ring or aragorn. Since denethor is descibed as having preternatural discernment AND had pip has his liege how did he ( pip)skirt the issue?

with frodo and faramir the questioning was written for us to read but not with pip and den.

could gandalf have helped somehow?

[Faramir]

No offense A-E, but that was all really confusing.

[Radagast The Brown]

Yeah, I didn't understand what do you mean. It was very confusing.

[Eldanuumea]

Afro-elf, are you questioning how Pippin was able to hide the facts about the One Ring from Denethor, who possessed unusual foresight? I've always thought Denethor actually figured out quite a bit from his conversation with Pippin that he didn't necessarily let on.

[Findegil]

May be Denethor did not ask to much, because he know already a great deal and saw also the bad situation he brought Pippin in. Pippin was his follower, so he had to tread him justly. To ask him about thinks that Pippin had promised to conceal from anybody would have been against the rule as you can say. Also it would have been against the rule for Pippin to conceal information which were essential for the ruler of Gondor. But the Ring was gone, far beyond Denethors reach. So all about it was not essential for Denethor, even if he might be greatly interested.

Regrads
Findegil

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

I think Afro's post made perfect sense. And it's a good question too...I'll have to give that some thought!

[BeardofPants]

Ah c'mon. He's lord of typos, not illogicality. Use your brains, people. Right. Diatribe out of the way.

I'm thinking it had something to do with his palantir gazing, in the sense that it had befuzzled his mind somewhat, to the extent that he was no longer thinking as clearly as he once did. Thus, his so-called preternatural discernment had erroded away somewhat due to his "contact" with Sauron. Blinded, if you will.

[Renille]

That, with the fact that Pippin was good at hiding things. Remember the conspiracy? Pippin was an active part, and he kept it hidden from Frodo somehow. Maybe he did the same thing with the judgement-befuddled Theoden.

[FrodoFriend]

Yeah, Pippin's not dull-witted or anything. He managed to hide a lot, such as the true nature of the Ring, but Denethor's insight also allowed him to learn a lot, such as the existence of some powerful object.

[afro-elf]

for those who were not able to glean the meaning of post i'll try again


Denethor was aware of the council of elrond and the dream of his sons. The halfing, the sword that was broken, isilidurs bane etc


I feel a tad short changed with not seeing how pippin skirted the issue with denethors uncanny scrying.

Afro-elf, are you questioning how Pippin was able to hide the facts about the One Ring from Denethor, who possessed unusual foresight? I've always thought Denethor actually figured out quite a bit from his conversation with Pippin that he didn't necessarily let on.

perphaps denethor did not wish pippin to know just how much he had gleaned from him.


To Bop thanks for watching my flank ( you to SLL) but Denethor didn't snap until later. His facualties were still with him then and he was able to glean much from pippin.

Renille hiding something from a genteel hobbit and hiding something from a high dunadan were the old blood flowed strongly are two different things.

[Lizra]

I think Denethor needed bifocals (like Sauron). sorry!

[Aragorn_iz_cool]

I know gandalf DID NOT help. He either couldent or wouldent. As forthe rest of it.

[RosieCotton]

This is a very good question. I understood you Afro-Elf, even if you are an elven lord of typing errors. I believe the Pippin, even though he does manage to mess some things up is a quick hobbit. He didn't let too much on in their conversation. Yet Denethor is a quick guy as well. Pippin didn't mention Aragorn or the Ring, but Denethor caught on, being the smart guy that he is, that Boromir didn't lead the company (so someone very powerful and of royal lineage must have been there) and that the Company had a very important job that could not fail. (Something dangerous) So Pippin did as good as anyone could have hoped, yet Denethor knew something was up. As for the fealty issue, Pippin never did lie.....he just didn't tell the entire truth.

[Jador]

Two thoughts occur to me when thinking on this.

1,You can ask alot of questions in an hour.

2, Gandalf tells Pippin not to mention Aragorn,then after Pippin finishes he himself says "Unless the King should come again?"Surely drawing atention to the matter.
-Was this a slip-up by the wizard,or during that hour did he himself change his tactics in dealing with the Steward,perhaps deciding to test his heart on the matter of the Kings possible return?





Afterthought-If Denethor wanted Pippin to tell him more,perhaps he should have supplied more wine!!:

[Mordomin]

I don't think that Pippin had anything to hide from Denethor as far as the Ring was concerned. Denethor knew what "Isildur's Bane" was, and it didn't take much wisdom to figure out that if Gandalf set out from Rivendell with a group of Halflings that Isildur's Bane would be involved in their mission. Denethor didn't know where Isildur's Bane was when Gandalf and Pippin arrived in MT, but then, neither did they, so Denethor could not learn that from them.

Pippin did blow it as far as concealing Aragorn's presence in the Fellowship, though, according to Gandalf.

[Eldanuumea]

Originally posted by Mordomin
I don't think that Pippin had anything to hide from Denethor as far as the Ring was concerned. Denethor knew what "Isildur's Bane" was, and it didn't take much wisdom to figure out that if Gandalf set out from Rivendell with a group of Halflings that Isildur's Bane would be involved in their mission. Denethor didn't know where Isildur's Bane was when Gandalf and Pippin arrived in MT, but then, neither did they, so Denethor could not learn that from them.

Pippin did blow it as far as concealing Aragorn's presence in the Fellowship, though, according to Gandalf.

I didn't get the impression that Gandalf was unhappy with Pippin's audience with Denethor.
"Indeed you did your best...and I hope that it may be long before you find yourself in such a tight corner again between two such terrible old men. Still, the Lord of Gondor learned more from you than you may have guessed, Pippin. You could not hide the fact that....there was one among you of high honour that was coming to Minas Tirith..."
He follows these comments with an affirmation of Pippin's spontaneous offer of service to Denethor.
It doesn't seem to me that Gandalf felt Pippin had "blown it."

[Mordomin]

Originally posted by Eldanuumea


I didn't get the impression that Gandalf was unhappy with Pippin's audience with Denethor.
"Indeed you did your best...and I hope that it may be long before you find yourself in such a tight corner again between two such terrible old men. Still, the Lord of Gondor learned more from you than you may have guessed, Pippin. You could not hide the fact that....there was one among you of high honour that was coming to Minas Tirith..."
He follows these comments with an affirmation of Pippin's spontaneous offer of service to Denethor.
It doesn't seem to me that Gandalf felt Pippin had "blown it."

I didn't say that Gandalf was unhappy with Pippen re. his interrogation by Denethor.

However, Gandalf specifically told Pippin not to mention Aragorn to Denethor right before the audience with Denethor, and right after that audience, Gandalf observes that Pippin "could not hide the fact that....there was one among you of high honour that was coming to Minas Tirith". That says to me that Pippin blew it with regard to keeping mum about Aragorn. What's your word for it?

[Eldanuumea]

Originally posted by Mordomin
I didn't say that Gandalf was unhappy with Pippen re. his interrogation by Denethor.

However, Gandalf specifically told Pippin not to mention Aragorn to Denethor right before the audience with Denethor, and right after that audience, Gandalf observes that Pippin "could not hide the fact that....there was one among you of high honour that was coming to Minas Tirith". That says to me that Pippin blew it with regard to keeping mum about Aragorn. What's your word for it?

We can infer that Pippin somehow indicated the presence of a leader other than Boromir, but we can't infer that Pippin identified him as Aragorn.
I did think you meant Gandalf was generally displeased with Pippin's interrogation, but I see your distinction between the revelation of Aragorn and the entire audience.
So, perhaps Pippin did "blow it" in regards to the Aragorn thing. I can't think of a more apt term, actually. But it remains possible that Pippin did not mention Aragorn's name, which is what Gandalf wanted him to avoid.

[Mordomin]

Originally posted by Eldanuumea

[snip]But it remains possible that Pippin did not mention Aragorn's name, which is what Gandalf wanted him to avoid.

Really? This is what Gandalf says to Pippin in my copy of RotK:

And say nothing about Aragorn either, unless you must. (emphasis added)

"Say nothing" not "Don't mention him by name". Since it does not say "don't mention him by name" in my copy of RotK, I did not claim that Pippin had done so in my previous posts, as a re-reading of said posts would reveal.

[Eldanuumea]

I stand corrected.