Feminism

afro-elf · 05-24-2002, 11:54 PM

I was speaking with a female one time and i said that she was one cool girl and she took umbrage at it.

She felt that it belittled her some how.

what are your thoughts on this and feminism in general

BeardofPants · 05-25-2002, 12:05 AM

Equality, and empowerment. That's about it. Playing word games is just plain silly. At the end of the day, they're just words; whats the point in getting offended by them?

Radagast · 05-25-2002, 04:36 AM

Don't get me wrong, I am all for equality for women, yes, equal oppertunities, yes equal treatment, agreed.
However, I do think feminism has gone too far, a lot of what feminism has become is not equality, it is propaganda about female superiority, a lot of supposedly 'feminist' television shows are merely an exuse to be anti-men.

Before I get too heated on that I'll move on. As I'm sure you're all familiar with the British SAS are considered to be the best special forces unit in the world, the training course for them is, therefore, extraordinarily tough and hugely challenging. Now, about 95% of the SAS are men. The reason? The average female simply cannot handle, in terms of brute strength and determinatin, the training course. So there was an outcry. All of a sudden feminists were campaigning for the training course to be made easier so women could complete it. This is nonsensical, surely? As dumbing it down would not be giving them equal oppertunities, would it?
Doing this would have an influx of those not worthy (I mean in terms of strength, stamina and fitness I do not mean that women are unworthy, do not misinterpret that please) to join the SAS joining.

So conclude, maybe its time for a douse of masculinism?

StrawberryIcecream · 05-25-2002, 05:05 AM

Men are stronger. Accept it. Fact of Life.
Women are for making children. Not designed for fighting etc.. Doesnt mean you cant, it just means females have a harder time generally. Dont get all this girl power thing. I say enjoy the fact that men are supposed to pay for meals and hold open doors. there is a certain point when it gets out of hand for instance being sacked for being a woman.

I think that women should have equal oppurtunities and never be denied the right to do what a man does but maybe they should also accept that some jobs where designed for the male gene.

And dont flameme for i am a female, not a male.

Rosie-Lass · 05-25-2002, 07:49 AM

Yes, but it's getting other people to realise this that is the problem. Most other females harbour feminist thoughts at sometime or other, but there, as Strawberry says, comes a point when you have to realise that the basis of feminism gives room for flaw. They want women to do whatever men do. At the time of the Suffragettes here in GB, builders were lower-class. Now the class system has been abolished as a means of distinguishing people from others, most women couldn't say that they would ACTUALLY like to be a builder or a roadsweeper or something like that, because it's a man's job. So basically they're living in the past when a cleaner, etc, was a LOWER-CLASS person's job and it wasn't just about gender as it is today.

I won't flame you, Strawb, because I think that you're right.

Darth Tater · 05-25-2002, 08:06 AM

I'm for equality of course, and I think feminism did a lot of good in the past. However, with any radical change to the system there are always negative side affects, and feminism has had quite its share. For one there's what you speak of, taking it way too far. In one episode of the West Wing Sam Seborn compliments the gorgeous Ainsley Hayes on an amazing (backless) dress. An intern at his office takes offense, saying his words were demeaning. Being a really good friend to Ainsley, he takes this to heart, and goes to her about it. She informs him that compliments like this actually make her feel better, make her feel empowered. That's right, just because you're a feminist doesn't mean you can't be a looker, or let people appreciate your hotness in a respectful manner.

Also, there's the issue of how feminism has affected men, specifically very young men and boys. Classroom dynamics as a whole have changed completely. Teachers, mostly male, are affraid of being accused of being sexist (I kid you not) if they don't give enough attention to the girls, and because of this they often favor the female students. Also, female teachers who obviously feel closer to their female students favor them. There's a very clear reason for the decline of male performance as compared to female performance in education, and sadly this doesn't seem to be changing very rapidly.

Lizra · 05-25-2002, 08:39 AM

AE, you seem like such a nice guy, if you told me I was a really cool woman I'd be flattered and smiling inside! I'm definitely a feminist, but that means I consider myself an intellectual equal to men, not the bimbo coffeemaker. (Though I will happily make your coffee if I like you.) Feminism has gotten a bad rap by some of the angry diesel dyke types. Sexism was so horrible in the past, young girls today probably wouldn't believe it! Being a woman is very, very cool, but I cringe when I see all the booty videos and overtly sexual youth movies. Young women should not be made to feel so desperate to have a boyfriend that they need to dress like sluts. Something's gone wrong somewhere but dealing with raging hormones is tough.

Garina · 05-25-2002, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Tater

Also, there's the issue of how feminism has affected men, specifically very young men and boys. Classroom dynamics as a whole have changed completely. Teachers, mostly male, are affraid of being accused of being sexist (I kid you not) if they don't give enough attention to the girls, and because of this they often favor the female students. Also, female teachers who obviously feel closer to their female students favor them. There's a very clear reason for the decline of male performance as compared to female performance in education, and sadly this doesn't seem to be changing very rapidly.

I'm not necessarily saying that sexism against men isn't a problem, but one of the main reasons male performance in schools is declining, in England anyway, is because the curriculum has changed and coursework (evil evil evil!) has been introduced. This apparently helps girls because they tend to work steadily throughout the year, whereas boys tend to start cramming 6 weeks before the exams.

Anyway, afro-elf, the girl you were talking to has a very strange idea of feminism. To me and my friends, it means that jobs should be distributed due to ability not gender. Just saying a girl looks hot, unless you were being sexually explicit (which I doubt

), shouldn't be able to give offence. Most girls would be flattered!!!

Vanimdil · 05-25-2002, 11:05 AM

I can't see how calling someone a cool girl could possibly be construed as demeaning. I mean, she didn't want to be called a cool guy, did she?!!!

That's one thing I've noticed about feminism taken too far, the women who do that seem to think there is something demeaning about being a woman and being treated as a woman. I believe that women should be treated with honor and respect as equal to men but not as if they are the same as men. I'm proud of being a woman and I see no reason to try to act like a man or demand to be treated like a man. I can't understand women who basically want to BE a man. The truth is a woman makes a second rate man (just as a man trying to be feminine makes a second rate woman.) Why not be a first rate woman instead? If a woman is really feminist (in its basic meaning of pro-woman) then why not glory in the beauty of womanhood and its unique qualities as separate from manhood?
I agree with what several of you have said about unfairness toward men in our society. It's ironic that the very women who want to be like men, don't treat men as equals or respect their manhood. If only we women would admire the womanhood in ourselves and the manhood in men.
There, I've had my little say! I'm sure no one can tell this is a soap box of mine.

Darth Tater · 05-25-2002, 11:21 AM

Another disturbing issue. In writings "he, his, him, himself, etc" used to be used when speaking in general about a person that could be a member of either gender. This was never sexist, it was simply proper grammar. Now, many many writers are replacing this with "she, hers, her, herself, etc" in order to appease the feminists. This is lunacy. That's not equality, that's taking something that was never sexist in the first place and making it sexist by actually caring. If you really want to be gender neutral, write "he/she", or adopt a new usage of "they" which some people have done. However, those are both unnesecary, since "he" can mean either/or in the general sense.

StrawberryIcecream · 05-25-2002, 12:13 PM

Good point Darth Tater.

A lot of people in my class get all hett up if somethign says 'he shall not do this!' when referring to mankind.

MANkind. Its general. accept it. Certainly doesnt bother me. Its not as if female things are always weak though. remember all countries and ships are referred to as 'her'!

Starr Polish · 05-25-2002, 12:48 PM

My history teacher told us something interesting about the word 'history'.

His...story.

Then he preced to say some feminists (and this is no joke) want to change it to herstory.

Idiocy.

Wayfarer · 05-25-2002, 01:33 PM

I remember reading that there's a feminist movement underway in europe which claims that stand-up urinals are sexist, and that standing while urinating is (quote) 'almost an act of voilence against women'.

ANy of you over-seasers want to comment on this?

Rána Eressëa · 05-25-2002, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayfarer
I remember reading that there's a feminist movement underway in europe which claims that stand-up urinals are sexist, and that standing while urinating is (quote) 'almost an act of violence against women'.

This weird world never ceases to amaze me. By the way, I think anyone who thinks ANY kind of job is made for a specific gender is out of line. Females, if they give themself the strength/training, can do a "man's" job. There is no job "made for men". There's also no job "made for women".

If you can do it - then DO it. Anyone agree?

Darth Tater · 05-25-2002, 05:59 PM

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I haven't had that good of a laugh in ages, thanks Wayfarer!

BeardofPants · 05-25-2002, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by StrawberryIcecream
MANkind. Its general. accept it. Certainly doesnt bother me. Its not as if female things are always weak though. remember all countries and ships are referred to as 'her'!

Sorry. must disagree there. It's my only quibble. And you'll find if you go on to college/varsity, that they'll beat you with sticks if you use it. It's NOT general; it's referring to one sex only. If you wanted to be general, you'd use humanity, or humankind, or hominids, or homo sapiens, or humans. That's general. "Mankind" is VERY gender specific.

StrawberryIcecream · 05-26-2002, 06:17 AM

violence?

How is that an act of violence??!

That's ridiculous!!!

afro-elf · 05-26-2002, 09:00 AM

here is link

http://www.misanthropic-bitch.com/death_to_women.html

Garina · 05-26-2002, 09:08 AM

Ok, the writer of that website worries me. She seems to have extremist views on everything, and only looks at the bad side of things. Reading the articles on that website made me feel ill.

BeardofPants · 05-26-2002, 09:11 AM

Really? They gave me a glimmer of hope that not all humans are idiots.

05-24-2002, 11:54 PM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Feminism I was speaking with a female one time and i said that she was one cool girl and she took umbrage at it. She felt that it belittled her some how. what are your thoughts on this and feminism in general __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

05-25-2002, 12:05 AM	#2
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Equality, and empowerment. That's about it. Playing word games is just plain silly. At the end of the day, they're just words; whats the point in getting offended by them? __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

05-25-2002, 04:36 AM	#3
Radagast Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Merry old England Posts: 413	Don't get me wrong, I am all for equality for women, yes, equal oppertunities, yes equal treatment, agreed. However, I do think feminism has gone too far, a lot of what feminism has become is not equality, it is propaganda about female superiority, a lot of supposedly 'feminist' television shows are merely an exuse to be anti-men. Before I get too heated on that I'll move on. As I'm sure you're all familiar with the British SAS are considered to be the best special forces unit in the world, the training course for them is, therefore, extraordinarily tough and hugely challenging. Now, about 95% of the SAS are men. The reason? The average female simply cannot handle, in terms of brute strength and determinatin, the training course. So there was an outcry. All of a sudden feminists were campaigning for the training course to be made easier so women could complete it. This is nonsensical, surely? As dumbing it down would not be giving them equal oppertunities, would it? Doing this would have an influx of those not worthy (I mean in terms of strength, stamina and fitness I do not mean that women are unworthy, do not misinterpret that please) to join the SAS joining. So conclude, maybe its time for a douse of masculinism? __________________ Take up the White Man's burden-- The savage wars of peace-- Fill full the mouth of Famine, And bid the sickness cease; And when your goal is nearest (The end for others sought) Watch sloth and heathen folly Bring all your hope to nought.

05-25-2002, 05:05 AM	#4
StrawberryIcecream Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In my jeans Posts: 915	Men are stronger. Accept it. Fact of Life. Women are for making children. Not designed for fighting etc.. Doesnt mean you cant, it just means females have a harder time generally. Dont get all this girl power thing. I say enjoy the fact that men are supposed to pay for meals and hold open doors. there is a certain point when it gets out of hand for instance being sacked for being a woman. I think that women should have equal oppurtunities and never be denied the right to do what a man does but maybe they should also accept that some jobs where designed for the male gene. And dont flameme for i am a female, not a male. __________________ www.foolofatook.com for all you pippin's out there.

05-25-2002, 07:49 AM	#5
Rosie-Lass Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: A dizzy state between insanity and sleep! Posts: 173	Yes, but it's getting other people to realise this that is the problem. Most other females harbour feminist thoughts at sometime or other, but there, as Strawberry says, comes a point when you have to realise that the basis of feminism gives room for flaw. They want women to do whatever men do. At the time of the Suffragettes here in GB, builders were lower-class. Now the class system has been abolished as a means of distinguishing people from others, most women couldn't say that they would ACTUALLY like to be a builder or a roadsweeper or something like that, because it's a man's job. So basically they're living in the past when a cleaner, etc, was a LOWER-CLASS person's job and it wasn't just about gender as it is today. I won't flame you, Strawb, because I think that you're right. __________________ Yoda Lives!

05-25-2002, 08:06 AM	#6
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	I'm for equality of course, and I think feminism did a lot of good in the past. However, with any radical change to the system there are always negative side affects, and feminism has had quite its share. For one there's what you speak of, taking it way too far. In one episode of the West Wing Sam Seborn compliments the gorgeous Ainsley Hayes on an amazing (backless) dress. An intern at his office takes offense, saying his words were demeaning. Being a really good friend to Ainsley, he takes this to heart, and goes to her about it. She informs him that compliments like this actually make her feel better, make her feel empowered. That's right, just because you're a feminist doesn't mean you can't be a looker, or let people appreciate your hotness in a respectful manner. Also, there's the issue of how feminism has affected men, specifically very young men and boys. Classroom dynamics as a whole have changed completely. Teachers, mostly male, are affraid of being accused of being sexist (I kid you not) if they don't give enough attention to the girls, and because of this they often favor the female students. Also, female teachers who obviously feel closer to their female students favor them. There's a very clear reason for the decline of male performance as compared to female performance in education, and sadly this doesn't seem to be changing very rapidly. __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

05-25-2002, 08:39 AM	#7
Lizra Domesticated Swing Babe Join Date: May 2002 Location: Reality Posts: 5,340	AE, you seem like such a nice guy, if you told me I was a really cool woman I'd be flattered and smiling inside! I'm definitely a feminist, but that means I consider myself an intellectual equal to men, not the bimbo coffeemaker. (Though I will happily make your coffee if I like you.) Feminism has gotten a bad rap by some of the angry diesel dyke types. Sexism was so horrible in the past, young girls today probably wouldn't believe it! Being a woman is very, very cool, but I cringe when I see all the booty videos and overtly sexual youth movies. Young women should not be made to feel so desperate to have a boyfriend that they need to dress like sluts. Something's gone wrong somewhere but dealing with raging hormones is tough. __________________ Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 05-25-2002 at 08:47 AM.

05-25-2002, 11:05 AM	#9
Vanimdil Enting Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 51	I can't see how calling someone a cool girl could possibly be construed as demeaning. I mean, she didn't want to be called a cool guy, did she?!!! That's one thing I've noticed about feminism taken too far, the women who do that seem to think there is something demeaning about being a woman and being treated as a woman. I believe that women should be treated with honor and respect as equal to men but not as if they are the same as men. I'm proud of being a woman and I see no reason to try to act like a man or demand to be treated like a man. I can't understand women who basically want to BE a man. The truth is a woman makes a second rate man (just as a man trying to be feminine makes a second rate woman.) Why not be a first rate woman instead? If a woman is really feminist (in its basic meaning of pro-woman) then why not glory in the beauty of womanhood and its unique qualities as separate from manhood? I agree with what several of you have said about unfairness toward men in our society. It's ironic that the very women who want to be like men, don't treat men as equals or respect their manhood. If only we women would admire the womanhood in ourselves and the manhood in men. There, I've had my little say! I'm sure no one can tell this is a soap box of mine.

05-25-2002, 11:21 AM	#10
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	Another disturbing issue. In writings "he, his, him, himself, etc" used to be used when speaking in general about a person that could be a member of either gender. This was never sexist, it was simply proper grammar. Now, many many writers are replacing this with "she, hers, her, herself, etc" in order to appease the feminists. This is lunacy. That's not equality, that's taking something that was never sexist in the first place and making it sexist by actually caring. If you really want to be gender neutral, write "he/she", or adopt a new usage of "they" which some people have done. However, those are both unnesecary, since "he" can mean either/or in the general sense. __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

05-25-2002, 12:13 PM	#11
StrawberryIcecream Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In my jeans Posts: 915	Good point Darth Tater. A lot of people in my class get all hett up if somethign says 'he shall not do this!' when referring to mankind. MANkind. Its general. accept it. Certainly doesnt bother me. Its not as if female things are always weak though. remember all countries and ships are referred to as 'her'! __________________ www.foolofatook.com for all you pippin's out there.

05-25-2002, 12:48 PM	#12
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	My history teacher told us something interesting about the word 'history'. His...story. Then he preced to say some feminists (and this is no joke) want to change it to herstory. Idiocy. __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

05-25-2002, 01:33 PM	#13
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	I remember reading that there's a feminist movement underway in europe which claims that stand-up urinals are sexist, and that standing while urinating is (quote) 'almost an act of voilence against women'. ANy of you over-seasers want to comment on this? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

05-25-2002, 05:59 PM	#15
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I haven't had that good of a laugh in ages, thanks Wayfarer! __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

05-26-2002, 06:17 AM	#17
StrawberryIcecream Elf Lord Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In my jeans Posts: 915	violence? How is that an act of violence??! That's ridiculous!!! __________________ www.foolofatook.com for all you pippin's out there.

05-26-2002, 09:00 AM	#18
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	here is link http://www.misanthropic-bitch.com/death_to_women.html __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

05-26-2002, 09:08 AM	#19
Garina Elf Lord Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tring, Herts, England Posts: 582	Ok, the writer of that website worries me. She seems to have extremist views on everything, and only looks at the bad side of things. Reading the articles on that website made me feel ill. __________________ Entmoot Resident Bard #2 Wielder of the shiny fire extinguisher Worshipper of the divine cheesecake Hamsters and Rangers everywhere, rejoice!!! Minsc, Baldur's Gate 2 Children, don't take drugs. Become a pop star, then people give them to you for free!!! - Billy Mack, Love Actually. While I'm sure the nice people from the local archery club meant well, a moment's consideration would have made them realise that giving my friend and I lethal weapons was probably not a good idea! Dammit, eyeliner and dreadlocks should not be that sexy!

05-26-2002, 09:11 AM	#20
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	Really? They gave me a glimmer of hope that not all humans are idiots. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

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