What if-Gollum...

cameronkendrick · 04-22-2002, 09:43 AM

Recently a strange question came to me. Be aware this is totally a what if, since Gollum dies in the bowls of Mount Doom, but here is my question anyhow. At the end of LOTR Bilbo and Frodo get to go across the sea because they were ring bearers. Also in the appendix it says that Sam eventually got to go because he was a ringbearer for that limited amount of time while Frodo was up in the tower with the orcs. That being so, assume that Gollum did not perish in the flame of Mount Doom but instead servived. Would he have been allowed to go across the sea like Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam since he was also bearer of the ring and for a much longer time than any of the other three also?

Comic Book Guy · 04-22-2002, 01:34 PM

Gollum beared the ring longer than anyone and was older than any of the Ringbearers, if you look at the way Bilbo was affected by the sudden destruction of the ring, the lock on him was destroyed and he became very tired and old, considering he was ancient according to Arwen. If this happened to Gollum, he may have died pretty soon after the ring was destroyed.

Look at the Nazgûl, they were bound to the ruling ring much stronger than anyone else, once it was destroyed, they died pretty much within a few seconds.

If Gollum did survive the destruction of the ring, maybe he would have been allowed to travel to the west for healing, but Smeagol was a nasty person before he stole the ring anyway.

olsonm · 04-22-2002, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy

If Gollum did survive the destruction of the ring, maybe he would have been allowed to travel to the west for healing, but Smeagol was a nasty person before he stole the ring anyway.

That's the key. If Gollum had willingly destroyed the ring, he might have been allowed to travel to the West. (Of course 'willingly' was quite impossible for Gollum at this point, but it is a what if.)

GandalfTheWhite · 04-22-2002, 02:10 PM

well i think you both have good points and i think they would have let him go and gandalf probubly would have said "he may yet have some purpose for good or evil yet to serve"

olsonm · 04-22-2002, 02:41 PM

Let me try again. CBG is right that Gollum probably would have died after the end of the ring, and failing that he might even have refused to go to the West. If he had remained a prisoner in Mirkwood he might have been curable, but then the ring might not have been destroyed. Was Gollum doomed?

Elf Girl · 04-22-2002, 03:13 PM

I think that if Sam had not been suspicious of Gollum, then Smeagol would have triumphed. He came very close to repenting. So I suppose there was hope for Gollum, but Sam spoiled it. (If Sam hadn't spoiled it, the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed, though.)

Elfhelm · 04-22-2002, 04:35 PM

I don't think Sam spoiled it at all. You mean you think Smeagol might have told them he was leading them to HER? He had just come back from there. Sam asked where he had been sneaking, and it was the truth. Gollum HAD been sneaking. But he hates the truth as much as he hates the light. If he were to come clean, he would have to admit he was sneaking. His betrayal was premeditated and flawlessly executed, with only a passing regret. But it didn't qualify as a near redemption in my reading.

In order for this what-if to come about, Frodo would have to have withheld the curse he laid on him while grasping the Ring. Then Smeagol would have to throw the Ring into the Crack of Doom. In that case, it would have been a redemption and he could have gone to Valinor to be healed, I think.

cameronkendrick · 04-22-2002, 05:40 PM

To Olsonm and Elfhelm:

I think you have missed a very important point. You both allude to Gollum's not willingly giving up the ring. That's true, but you must remember that Frodo failed worse than any at the crack of Mount Doom and was still allowed to go across the sea. When Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam were allowed to "go" none were judged for their wrongs or shortcomings, they were allowed to go on the fact that they were ringbearers and that middle earth was no longer truely for them. Gollum would have to of fell under the same acceptance.

olsonm · 04-22-2002, 05:47 PM

I hear what your saying cameronkendrick, that's why I didn't like my first post. I wonder if Gollum was too far gone to forgive himself. Rember Bilbo and Frodo didn't have the ring nearly as long and were essentially good people. Gollum was a murderer and it's been implied that he was kind of a bad person before the ring came to him. So, though he probably would have been offered healing in the West, he might have refused to go.

Elfhelm · 04-22-2002, 06:01 PM

Why did the elven rope burn him? It didn't burn Frodo. And no matter that Frodo didn't have the strength to give up the Ring, it hadn't corrupted him to kill innocent people or make a pact with a descendant Ungoliant that also was the same as murder. Even if someone decides not to murder someone else because they were the only person who was nice to them in 500 years, it isn't a redemption. Frodo lost his finger and paid his price for his second thoughts.

"Lost lost! We're lost. And when Precious goes we'll die into the dust." He clawed up the ashes of the path with his long fleshless fingers. "Dusst!" he hissed.

Menelvagor · 04-22-2002, 07:19 PM

I agree that he would've been allowed to go, pity is a big theme with him, and if the chance for him to be healed were offered, Gandalf at least, I think, would've wanted him to go. But I don't think he would have accepted; he hatess the nasssty elfss with bright eyess, yess perciousss.

Elf Girl · 04-22-2002, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Why did the elven rope burn him? It didn't burn Frodo.

Gollum had had the Ring so long that the Elves were to pure for him to come into contact with without pain. The same would probably have happened to Frodo, if he had been corropted for 500 years.

Comic Book Guy · 04-22-2002, 07:32 PM

I always believed that Gollum hated the Elven-rope because he was spitful against the Elves for being his captors, wouldn't you?

I base this on the way he reacted to the rope, shouting curses against the Elves themselves, not the rope.

Quote:

Elves
twisted it, curse them! Nasty cruel hobbits! That's why we tries to escape,
of course it is, precious. We guessed they were cruel hobbits. They visits
Elves, fierce Elves with bright eyes. Take it off us! It hurts us.'

Elf Girl · 04-22-2002, 07:37 PM

It seemed to me that Gollum was actually in pain because of the rope, and physical pain can't come frome pure spite. I imagined that the Elves were too pure for him to touch, and this reminded him of his imprisonment, which made him curse the Elves all over again.

tolkiengal · 04-22-2002, 09:08 PM

you all are right- but gollum proboly would have hated to go any where near the elves because of his imprisonment-he would have been sailing with elves.

04-22-2002, 09:43 AM	#1
cameronkendrick Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Eastern Kentucky University Posts: 16	What if-Gollum... Recently a strange question came to me. Be aware this is totally a what if, since Gollum dies in the bowls of Mount Doom, but here is my question anyhow. At the end of LOTR Bilbo and Frodo get to go across the sea because they were ring bearers. Also in the appendix it says that Sam eventually got to go because he was a ringbearer for that limited amount of time while Frodo was up in the tower with the orcs. That being so, assume that Gollum did not perish in the flame of Mount Doom but instead servived. Would he have been allowed to go across the sea like Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam since he was also bearer of the ring and for a much longer time than any of the other three also? __________________ "Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun The frumious Bandersnatch!"

04-22-2002, 02:10 PM	#4
GandalfTheWhite Elven Warrior Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 297	well i think you both have good points and i think they would have let him go and gandalf probubly would have said "he may yet have some purpose for good or evil yet to serve" __________________ "Behold, I am not Gandalf the Grey, whom you betrayed. I am Gandalf the White, who has returned from death. You have no colour now, and I cast you from the order and from the Council." -Gandalf The Road goes ever on and on Down from the door where it began. Now far ahead the Road has gone, And I must follow, if I can, Pursuing it with eager feet, Until it joins some larger way Where many paths and errands meet. And whither then? I cannot say. "He who breaks a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom." -Gandalf "A thing is about to happen which has not happened since the Elder Days: the Ents are going to wake up and find that they are strong." -Gandalf

04-22-2002, 02:41 PM	#5
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	I don't like my previous post Let me try again. CBG is right that Gollum probably would have died after the end of the ring, and failing that he might even have refused to go to the West. If he had remained a prisoner in Mirkwood he might have been curable, but then the ring might not have been destroyed. Was Gollum doomed? __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

04-22-2002, 03:13 PM	#6
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	I think that if Sam had not been suspicious of Gollum, then Smeagol would have triumphed. He came very close to repenting. So I suppose there was hope for Gollum, but Sam spoiled it. (If Sam hadn't spoiled it, the Ring wouldn't have been destroyed, though.) __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

04-22-2002, 04:35 PM	#7
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	I don't think Sam spoiled it at all. You mean you think Smeagol might have told them he was leading them to HER? He had just come back from there. Sam asked where he had been sneaking, and it was the truth. Gollum HAD been sneaking. But he hates the truth as much as he hates the light. If he were to come clean, he would have to admit he was sneaking. His betrayal was premeditated and flawlessly executed, with only a passing regret. But it didn't qualify as a near redemption in my reading. In order for this what-if to come about, Frodo would have to have withheld the curse he laid on him while grasping the Ring. Then Smeagol would have to throw the Ring into the Crack of Doom. In that case, it would have been a redemption and he could have gone to Valinor to be healed, I think. __________________ cya

04-22-2002, 01:34 PM	#2
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	Gollum beared the ring longer than anyone and was older than any of the Ringbearers, if you look at the way Bilbo was affected by the sudden destruction of the ring, the lock on him was destroyed and he became very tired and old, considering he was ancient according to Arwen. If this happened to Gollum, he may have died pretty soon after the ring was destroyed. Look at the Nazgûl, they were bound to the ruling ring much stronger than anyone else, once it was destroyed, they died pretty much within a few seconds. If Gollum did survive the destruction of the ring, maybe he would have been allowed to travel to the west for healing, but Smeagol was a nasty person before he stole the ring anyway.

04-22-2002, 05:40 PM	#8
cameronkendrick Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Eastern Kentucky University Posts: 16	To Olsonm and Elfhelm: I think you have missed a very important point. You both allude to Gollum's not willingly giving up the ring. That's true, but you must remember that Frodo failed worse than any at the crack of Mount Doom and was still allowed to go across the sea. When Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam were allowed to "go" none were judged for their wrongs or shortcomings, they were allowed to go on the fact that they were ringbearers and that middle earth was no longer truely for them. Gollum would have to of fell under the same acceptance. __________________ "Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun The frumious Bandersnatch!"

04-22-2002, 05:47 PM	#9
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	I hear what your saying cameronkendrick, that's why I didn't like my first post. I wonder if Gollum was too far gone to forgive himself. Rember Bilbo and Frodo didn't have the ring nearly as long and were essentially good people. Gollum was a murderer and it's been implied that he was kind of a bad person before the ring came to him. So, though he probably would have been offered healing in the West, he might have refused to go. __________________ Gandalf lives...oh and Frodo too. Haldir Lives!!!

04-22-2002, 06:01 PM	#10
Elfhelm Marshal of the Eastmark Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,412	Why did the elven rope burn him? It didn't burn Frodo. And no matter that Frodo didn't have the strength to give up the Ring, it hadn't corrupted him to kill innocent people or make a pact with a descendant Ungoliant that also was the same as murder. Even if someone decides not to murder someone else because they were the only person who was nice to them in 500 years, it isn't a redemption. Frodo lost his finger and paid his price for his second thoughts. "Lost lost! We're lost. And when Precious goes we'll die into the dust." He clawed up the ashes of the path with his long fleshless fingers. "Dusst!" he hissed. __________________ cya

04-22-2002, 07:19 PM	#11
Menelvagor Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: lurking on the edge of conversations Posts: 924	I agree that he would've been allowed to go, pity is a big theme with him, and if the chance for him to be healed were offered, Gandalf at least, I think, would've wanted him to go. But I don't think he would have accepted; he hatess the nasssty elfss with bright eyess, yess perciousss.

04-22-2002, 07:37 PM	#14
Elf Girl Lurker Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 3,419	It seemed to me that Gollum was actually in pain because of the rope, and physical pain can't come frome pure spite. I imagined that the Elves were too pure for him to touch, and this reminded him of his imprisonment, which made him curse the Elves all over again. __________________ There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium...

04-22-2002, 09:08 PM	#15
tolkiengal Sapling Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 7	you all are right- but gollum proboly would have hated to go any where near the elves because of his imprisonment-he would have been sailing with elves.

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