Plate Armor Too Advanced for Middle Earth?

bropous · 02-15-2002, 03:43 PM

I was reading an article on another site about FotR, and someone made an interesting point. They thought that using plate armor in middle earth was out of place. The point was that plate armor reflects more of a middle ages feel to armor while tolkien only spoke of chaim mail in the books, and that middle earth was more dark ages based. What do you think about this objection?

For me, I had always visualized all of the warrior characters in chain mail, except, for some reason, Imrahil of Dol Amroth, whom I visualized in a combo of chain mail and plate pieces. Was there any mention of other armor varieties in the book?

markedel · 02-15-2002, 05:13 PM

Too advanced? Numenor created all sorts of cool stuff, Earendil sails in a space ship and Gondor can't create plate armor but they can create large scale infrastructure a la Argonath!

Sure...

bropous · 02-15-2002, 05:52 PM

Well, the Egyptians built pyramids but plate armor was still thousands of years in the future...

A few public works does not a middle ages make.

markedel · 02-15-2002, 06:24 PM

Gondor is apparently supposed to be Egypt like. However there seems to be no great problem with having plate armor, and it's possibly they are easier to make.

Starr Polish · 02-15-2002, 06:34 PM

Hmm, hello, Palantir? Sounds a lot like the internet to me

Pretty advanced.

And it's not a true history either. Ai!

Arathorn · 02-16-2002, 07:45 PM

well, elves as Prof T pictured them didn't exist before he wrote about them.
also, if you had paper (egyptian), fireworks (chinese) and stirrups(huns) in the same hands(european looking, it seems), it certainly makes it difficult to compare with actual timelines. perhaps the wizards taught them the technology.

on a less serious note.... besides, there was a car in the movie.

Lightice · 02-17-2002, 06:27 AM

There was a mention of plate armor at one point of the books. In Rohan it was said to Merry, that "We don't have a chain mail of your size and we don't have time to forge a breastplate" or something like that. So at least some parts of armor were plate...

bropous · 02-17-2002, 10:51 AM

Ah, Lightice, I had not recalled that part of the book. Good call.

Laurelyn · 02-17-2002, 01:44 PM

Nah, I don't think it's too advanced. And Lightice's quote proves that there was at least some plate aromor. Although I think that it would have been more middle-earth as I imagined it if they'd done less plate and more chain mail.

Foul_Dwimmerlaik · 02-18-2002, 01:14 PM

Imrahil discovers that Eowyn is still barely breathing by showing the condensation on a piece of his armour...that particular piece of armour had to be burnished plate.

barrelrider110 · 02-18-2002, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Hmm, hello, Palantir? Sounds a lot like the internet to me Pretty advanced.

"You've got mail"

Finrod Felagund · 02-22-2002, 03:49 PM

In the Silmarillion it says that the Noldor of Valinor had armour. It also says that the dwarves invented chain mail. The Noldor and Dwarves didn't meet until the Return to middle Earth so the Noldor obviously didn'ty have mail. Remember, the noldor worked with Aule and he was the master smith.
Theis technology would have been carried on through Celebrimbor's smiths and their remnants went to Rivindell so the plate armour easily could hve been in existence.

barrelrider110 · 02-22-2002, 04:35 PM

Quote:

I was reading an article on another site about FotR, and someone made an interesting point. They thought that using plate armor in middle earth was out of place. The point was that plate armor reflects more of a middle ages feel to armor while tolkien only spoke of chaim mail in the books, and that middle earth was more dark ages based. What do you think about this objection?

Sorry, there is really no mention of "plate armor" in LOTR. (There are inaccurate posts above that claim there was). It's also mentioned that orc soldiers had iron boots.

Ouch!

From a historical perspective, chain mail was all that was used by European fighters in the middle ages. Breast-plates and scale armor began to be employed by the 1200's. Full body armor was not used until the 1500's.

I don't think breast-plate or full body armor is out of the context of Tolkien's ME at all. Middle Earth craft does not necessarily follow the progress of our world's technology anyway, e.g., Palantiri, Orthanc, Rings of Power.

02-15-2002, 03:43 PM	#1
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Plate Armor Too Advanced for Middle Earth? I was reading an article on another site about FotR, and someone made an interesting point. They thought that using plate armor in middle earth was out of place. The point was that plate armor reflects more of a middle ages feel to armor while tolkien only spoke of chaim mail in the books, and that middle earth was more dark ages based. What do you think about this objection? For me, I had always visualized all of the warrior characters in chain mail, except, for some reason, Imrahil of Dol Amroth, whom I visualized in a combo of chain mail and plate pieces. Was there any mention of other armor varieties in the book? __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-15-2002, 05:13 PM	#2
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Too advanced? Numenor created all sorts of cool stuff, Earendil sails in a space ship and Gondor can't create plate armor but they can create large scale infrastructure a la Argonath! Sure... __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-15-2002, 05:52 PM	#3
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Well, the Egyptians built pyramids but plate armor was still thousands of years in the future... A few public works does not a middle ages make. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-15-2002, 06:24 PM	#4
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Gondor is apparently supposed to be Egypt like. However there seems to be no great problem with having plate armor, and it's possibly they are easier to make. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-15-2002, 06:34 PM	#5
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	Hmm, hello, Palantir? Sounds a lot like the internet to me Pretty advanced. And it's not a true history either. Ai! __________________ “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” –Bertrand Russell

02-16-2002, 07:45 PM	#6
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	well, elves as Prof T pictured them didn't exist before he wrote about them. also, if you had paper (egyptian), fireworks (chinese) and stirrups(huns) in the same hands(european looking, it seems), it certainly makes it difficult to compare with actual timelines. perhaps the wizards taught them the technology. on a less serious note.... besides, there was a car in the movie. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures... Last edited by Arathorn : 02-16-2002 at 07:48 PM.

02-17-2002, 06:27 AM	#7
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	There was a mention of plate armor at one point of the books. In Rohan it was said to Merry, that "We don't have a chain mail of your size and we don't have time to forge a breastplate" or something like that. So at least some parts of armor were plate...

02-17-2002, 10:51 AM	#8
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Ah, Lightice, I had not recalled that part of the book. Good call. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-17-2002, 01:44 PM	#9
Laurelyn Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor, right next to Telperion . . . what did you expect, Michigan? Posts: 1,315	Nah, I don't think it's too advanced. And Lightice's quote proves that there was at least some plate aromor. Although I think that it would have been more middle-earth as I imagined it if they'd done less plate and more chain mail. __________________ The Third Age of Entmoot has begun. Angel of music, guide and guardian! Grant to me your glory! The country I eat and spend the day in is by no means the country I sleep and dream in. Define patriotism. Hold the boat, you spastic monkey! ~ Elenka

02-18-2002, 01:14 PM	#10
Foul_Dwimmerlaik Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 76	Imrahil discovers that Eowyn is still barely breathing by showing the condensation on a piece of his armour...that particular piece of armour had to be burnished plate. __________________ Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the lidless eye.

02-22-2002, 03:49 PM	#12
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	In the Silmarillion it says that the Noldor of Valinor had armour. It also says that the dwarves invented chain mail. The Noldor and Dwarves didn't meet until the Return to middle Earth so the Noldor obviously didn'ty have mail. Remember, the noldor worked with Aule and he was the master smith. Theis technology would have been carried on through Celebrimbor's smiths and their remnants went to Rivindell so the plate armour easily could hve been in existence.

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