One last thing about Gil-Galad

Curufinwe · 02-08-2002, 05:51 PM

Doesnt it follow that Gil-Galad was necessarily descended from Fingolfin? How else would he have a claim on the high kingship of the Noldor in Middle Earth? If he was the son of Orodreth (he being either son or grandson of Finarfin) wouldn't Elrond have an equally legit claim as king, as the high kingship passed from the house of Feanor to that of Fingolfin? Or if not Elrond, why not Galadriel? who was certainly older than Gil-Galad any way you slice it, and descended from the same line?

Ñólendil · 02-08-2002, 07:22 PM

Welcome!

Good points. But any way you slice it, Tolkien didn't really see a problem with it, did he? So it's just sort of left to us to think 'why'. Why didn't he see a problem with Gil-Galad son of Arothir son of Angrod son of Finarfin succeeding Turgon as High-King? I think it was simply because the Elves had a peculiar way in choosing their leaders. The Elves decided they would take Gil-Galad as High-King, and that was that. I think at the time Maedros was actually the eldest member of the House of Finwë in Middle-earth (and he was the only Noldorin King left, besides Gil-Galad). Galadriel wasn't much of a politician back then, but the Elves may not have liked the idea of a High-Queen, either.

Towards the end of the Shibboleth of Fëanor (which you seem to have read), Tolkien acknowledges the fact that Elrond had some claim to the Kingship of Turgon and Thingol, but I think it also says something to the effect that Elrond did not desire Kingship. I know it does say that Elrond liked the idea of the inheritance of Thingol more, as that High-King was under no Ban of the Valar.

Findegil · 02-09-2002, 04:07 PM

It can also be that only a male-line would count for that claim. In this way Elrond and Galadriel would be roled out and Gil-galad would be the High-King.

Regards
Findegil

Ñólendil · 02-09-2002, 11:28 PM

Elrond is male and he's descended from Finwe through Fingolfin (and Turgon and Idril and Eärendil).

Curufinwe · 02-10-2002, 01:13 PM

Yeah just a thought i had, thanks for your replies, im also new to this by the way so hello to everyone.

Findegil · 02-13-2002, 04:40 AM

I was thionking of a male-line. That means a unbroken succesion from father to son. And as you yourself, Ñólendil, pointed out Elrond was the grandson of Idril. And so he was not in male-line.

Regrads
Findegil

Ñólendil · 02-18-2002, 04:02 PM

Makes sense. And Galadriel wouldn't count because she herself is female?

Wayfarer · 02-18-2002, 08:44 PM

Maybe it was based on merit. Eh?

Finrod Felagund · 02-22-2002, 03:08 PM

Actually, Gil-Galad was the son of Fingon who was Fingolfin's eldest son. Maehdros gave the high kingship to Fingolfin after Feanor's death so Gil-Galad was the heir of Fingolfin.

Finrod Felagund · 02-22-2002, 03:10 PM

No offense to 'men' but because Elrond was only half elf (not even, his father was a half elf0 then maybe he couldn't be high king. Also, he was partly Sindar, not all Noldor, remember the high kingship of Fingolfin was only over the Noldor.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 02-22-2002, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Finrod Felagund
Actually, Gil-Galad was the son of Fingo who was Fingolfin's eldest son. Maehdros gave the high kingship to Fingolfin after Feanor's death so Gil-Galad was the heir of Fingolfin.

Again, this is another error in the Silmarillion. In the end, Gil-galad is not the son of Fingon, but the son of Orodreth, who is the son of Angrod.

Finrod Felagund · 02-28-2002, 03:06 PM

Not true, Finwe had three sons, Feanor by his first wife and Fingolfin and Finarfin by his second. Fingolfin's children were Fingon, Turgon and Aredhel.
We know Feanor's seven sons.
Finarfin's children were Finrod Felagund, Angrod, Aegnor, Orodreth and Galadriel. Orodreth was Angrod's brother and the father of the elf maid Finduilas.

Gil-Galad (Ereneion) was Fingon's son who was sent to the Havens of Cirdan to be safe after the Nirnaith.

Finrod Felagund · 02-28-2002, 03:07 PM

Originally Orodreth was to have been in the next generation but Tolkien changed this to him being the brother and only sucessor of Finrod, who was the brother of Angrod and Aegnor.

Ñólendil · 02-28-2002, 05:30 PM

You've got that backwards. Originally Orodreth was Finrod's brother, Tolkien's final idea was that his name was Arothir and he was Finrod's nephew. Sister Golden Hair is right. This information can be found in The Peoples of Middle-earth, Vol. XII of the History of the Midlde-earth series.

The latest idea from Tolkien is that Finarfin's childred were Finrod, Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel. Angrod's son was Arothir [=Orodreth] who's son was Gil-Galad. This was not the version Christopher Tolkien used for the Silmarillion. CT admitted that he should not have said Gil-Galad was the son of Fingon (he says in the Peoples of Middle-earth that he now realizes G-G as the son of Fingon was an ephemeral idea).

Also, in the essay The Shibboleth of Fëanor at least (found in PoMe), Fingolfin had four children: Fingon, Turgon, Aredhel and Argon.

Finrod Felagund · 03-04-2002, 01:36 PM

But if Gil-Galad was the son of Orodreth then he wasn't of the house of Fingolfin, thus contradicting the Silmarillion, Aldarion and Erendis (Unfinished Tales) and a numbere of other writings.

Findegil · 03-06-2002, 01:34 PM

Yes, but in The Silmarillion and in The Unfinished Tales he parentage from Fingon were editorial changes. And other texts are scarce, and express an few later abandoned.

Regards
Findegil

02-08-2002, 05:51 PM	#1
Curufinwe Enting Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New England Posts: 59	One last thing about Gil-Galad Doesnt it follow that Gil-Galad was necessarily descended from Fingolfin? How else would he have a claim on the high kingship of the Noldor in Middle Earth? If he was the son of Orodreth (he being either son or grandson of Finarfin) wouldn't Elrond have an equally legit claim as king, as the high kingship passed from the house of Feanor to that of Fingolfin? Or if not Elrond, why not Galadriel? who was certainly older than Gil-Galad any way you slice it, and descended from the same line?

02-08-2002, 07:22 PM	#2
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Welcome! Good points. But any way you slice it, Tolkien didn't really see a problem with it, did he? So it's just sort of left to us to think 'why'. Why didn't he see a problem with Gil-Galad son of Arothir son of Angrod son of Finarfin succeeding Turgon as High-King? I think it was simply because the Elves had a peculiar way in choosing their leaders. The Elves decided they would take Gil-Galad as High-King, and that was that. I think at the time Maedros was actually the eldest member of the House of Finwë in Middle-earth (and he was the only Noldorin King left, besides Gil-Galad). Galadriel wasn't much of a politician back then, but the Elves may not have liked the idea of a High-Queen, either. Towards the end of the Shibboleth of Fëanor (which you seem to have read), Tolkien acknowledges the fact that Elrond had some claim to the Kingship of Turgon and Thingol, but I think it also says something to the effect that Elrond did not desire Kingship. I know it does say that Elrond liked the idea of the inheritance of Thingol more, as that High-King was under no Ban of the Valar. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

02-09-2002, 11:28 PM	#4
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Elrond is male and he's descended from Finwe through Fingolfin (and Turgon and Idril and Eärendil). __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

02-18-2002, 04:02 PM	#7
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Makes sense. And Galadriel wouldn't count because she herself is female? __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

02-18-2002, 08:44 PM	#8
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	Maybe it was based on merit. Eh? __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-09-2002, 04:07 PM	#3
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	It can also be that only a male-line would count for that claim. In this way Elrond and Galadriel would be roled out and Gil-galad would be the High-King. Regards Findegil

02-10-2002, 01:13 PM	#5
Curufinwe Enting Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New England Posts: 59	Yeah just a thought i had, thanks for your replies, im also new to this by the way so hello to everyone.

02-13-2002, 04:40 AM	#6
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	I was thionking of a male-line. That means a unbroken succesion from father to son. And as you yourself, Ñólendil, pointed out Elrond was the grandson of Idril. And so he was not in male-line. Regrads Findegil

02-22-2002, 03:08 PM	#9
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	Actually, Gil-Galad was the son of Fingon who was Fingolfin's eldest son. Maehdros gave the high kingship to Fingolfin after Feanor's death so Gil-Galad was the heir of Fingolfin. Last edited by Finrod Felagund : 03-18-2002 at 03:40 PM.

02-22-2002, 03:10 PM	#10
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	No offense to 'men' but because Elrond was only half elf (not even, his father was a half elf0 then maybe he couldn't be high king. Also, he was partly Sindar, not all Noldor, remember the high kingship of Fingolfin was only over the Noldor.

02-28-2002, 03:06 PM	#12
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	Not true, Finwe had three sons, Feanor by his first wife and Fingolfin and Finarfin by his second. Fingolfin's children were Fingon, Turgon and Aredhel. We know Feanor's seven sons. Finarfin's children were Finrod Felagund, Angrod, Aegnor, Orodreth and Galadriel. Orodreth was Angrod's brother and the father of the elf maid Finduilas. Gil-Galad (Ereneion) was Fingon's son who was sent to the Havens of Cirdan to be safe after the Nirnaith. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

02-28-2002, 03:07 PM	#13
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	Originally Orodreth was to have been in the next generation but Tolkien changed this to him being the brother and only sucessor of Finrod, who was the brother of Angrod and Aegnor. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

02-28-2002, 05:30 PM	#14
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	You've got that backwards. Originally Orodreth was Finrod's brother, Tolkien's final idea was that his name was Arothir and he was Finrod's nephew. Sister Golden Hair is right. This information can be found in The Peoples of Middle-earth, Vol. XII of the History of the Midlde-earth series. The latest idea from Tolkien is that Finarfin's childred were Finrod, Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel. Angrod's son was Arothir [=Orodreth] who's son was Gil-Galad. This was not the version Christopher Tolkien used for the Silmarillion. CT admitted that he should not have said Gil-Galad was the son of Fingon (he says in the Peoples of Middle-earth that he now realizes G-G as the son of Fingon was an ephemeral idea). Also, in the essay The Shibboleth of Fëanor at least (found in PoMe), Fingolfin had four children: Fingon, Turgon, Aredhel and Argon. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

03-04-2002, 01:36 PM	#15
Finrod Felagund King of Nargothrond Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Canada! eh? Posts: 2,002	But if Gil-Galad was the son of Orodreth then he wasn't of the house of Fingolfin, thus contradicting the Silmarillion, Aldarion and Erendis (Unfinished Tales) and a numbere of other writings. __________________ "THE EAGLES ARE COMING, THE EAGLES ARE COMING......AND A MOTH!!!!!"

03-06-2002, 01:34 PM	#16
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	Yes, but in The Silmarillion and in The Unfinished Tales he parentage from Fingon were editorial changes. And other texts are scarce, and express an few later abandoned. Regards Findegil

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