Of Crossbreeds...

[Rána Eressëa]

I've noticed in Middle-earth that crossbreeds were an extremely rare occurence, and were I believe only known to happen between Elves and Humans. Why is this? Certainly, somewhere along the line there could have been crossbreeds unknown of, true? I'm pretty sure there was none ever between Elves and Dwarves, but what about Hobbits and Elves? Or Humans and Hobbits? Or maybe even Dwarves and Hobbits? Doesn't it just get you to thinking? I do believe there was a possibility for this, no matter how thin the string may be, their cultures weren't that disjointed from each other. What do you think?

[Wayfarer]

Well...

take Elves/Men. Elves are these beautiful, magical, wonderful beings that are only a small step down from the ainur. Men are just... Humans. There's nothing in most of humanity that an elf would be romantically interested in. The same goes for elves/maia. It takes an incredible being to attract a member of a race higher than your own (like thingil, who was one of hte four leaders of elves, or beren, whom orcish armies would flee rather than face)

In addition, men and hobbits seem to b every provincial. Notice how Eowen reacts when Faramir asks her to marry him. It implies that marriges between even bordering, allied cultures were very rare and looked down upon-how much more so would be mingling of races?

Then you have the orcs... who only men reduced to depravity would cross with. I don't think that any crosses between orcs and other races would occur, unless by rape, and I don't think that's very likely either.

Last of all... dwarves were a race apart. They were created by Aule, and are socially and culturally incompatible to a high degree. I have doubts whether a dwarf/outsider coupling is even within the confines of biological/genetic compatibility.

[Rána Eressëa]

Yes, true, is was looked down upon. But you don't think every single living being actually looked down upon it, do you? Even in the past of times there was always someone who said, "Do I look like I give a damn?"

[ragamuffin92]

I don't know if I would want to marry a woman who was half my height and had hairy feet...
I read somewhere that Professor T envioned hobbits' feet hair to start above the ankle, and to be more like fur than the wispy foot hair hobbits are usually depicted as having. All right, so I'm shallow.

[Wayfarer]

Yes... but that's only a small part of the reason.

Think of it this way-do supermodels ever do more than glance at guys like me? Do you think Elijah Wood would be interested in you when he can hook up with someone who looks a whole lot better?
Naah... and that's they way it is with Maia>elves, elves>men, etc.

And Hobbits/big races you have the whole height thing.


It's not so much a 'we shouldn't do this' kinda thing as a 'why bother' attityde. you know?

[Starr Polish]

And if you really think about it, the union between elf and man had to be a bit odd, and I don't find it realistic at all. I believe this point has been brought up before.

Aragorn is about middle aged when we first meet him. Arwen is what, nearly 3000 years old? Don't you think that Aragorn would be like a child to Arwen? ::shrug:: It could happen, but it's almost like falling in love with a child.

[Rána Eressëa]

Well, first off, once again you're saying "all", I repeat "all", when you should be saying "most". Not "all" supermodels are like that. #1: You can't prove it as a fact. #2: You can't outright say all supermodels want only the better looking because you don't know for sure. There are most definitely some out there who don't think looks are everything. Hell, I've even seen ugly supermodels. What someone looks like is viewed differently by different people. Personally, I'm not one who goes for all-looks, so if I lived in the time, you can bet your two cents that I'd probably be that person who says, "Do I look like I give a damn?"

As for the height thing, I've seen a regular 5'6 height woman marry a 3'9 midget and they had a child together. The child was born normally and ended up attaining the same height as his mother. So, height really doesn't matter.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
And if you really think about it, the union between elf and man had to be a bit odd, and I don't find it realistic at all. I believe this point has been brought up before.

Aragorn is about middle aged when we first meet him. Arwen is what, nearly 3000 years old? Don't you think that Aragorn would be like a child to Arwen? ::shrug:: It could happen, but it's almost like falling in love with a child.

The three unions that occurred between Elves and Men were unique, and as Finrod stated before they ever happened : were only for some high purpose of doom. So, these unions, although sincere in love and meaning between the two parties, were out of their control so to speak. In other words, they were thrust together by fate. Their fates by their unions changed the courses of events that otherwise would have not occurred. The Elves in particular were much against the joining with outsiders. In the Sil. or maybe it is UT, it is stated how the Elves believed that Men should rule their own kingdoms and march under their own banners. Finrod Felagund, who was probably the most open minded about race of all the Eldar, objected to the inner-racial marriage, and believed that humans should really live apart from the Elves. I think he shows his disapproval in Morgoth's Ring, when he tells the Human woman Andreth about why she and his brother Aegnor cannot be joined. Segragation was a very real thing in Tolkien's world.

[FrodoFriend]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Yes... but that's only a small part of the reason.

Think of it this way-do supermodels ever do more than glance at guys like me? Do you think Elijah Wood would be interested in you when he can hook up with someone who looks a whole lot better?
Naah... and that's they way it is with Maia>elves, elves>men, etc.

And Hobbits/big races you have the whole height thing.


It's not so much a 'we shouldn't do this' kinda thing as a 'why bother' attityde. you know?

I would hope that Elves and the other races of Middle Earth wouldn't be that shallow.

No, I really think it's the cultural and mental differences. Elves and Hobbits or Hobbits and Men and definitely Dwarves just don't have much in common in their ways of life and ways of thinking. Elves and Men are a little more alike, which explains why there have been a few couples.

Really, what would an Elf and a Hobbit do if they were married? Their mentalities are so different.

[afro-elf]

SGH

4 unions, forget not Imrazor the Numenorean and Mithrellas.

[barrelrider110]

All of Tolkien's love stories are high romance. There is no sexual activity to speak of. The interracial unions of Beren and Luthien and Aragorn and Arwen are basically Romeo and Juliet forbidden love. When he and his future wife Edith Bratt were in boarding school, he was 17 and she was 20, I believe, and they were forbidden to see each other. They married years later. He also referred to her in his letters as his Luthien Tnuviel and he as her Beren. I am sure he made her very happy. Even thought JRRT vigorously denies any allegory in his stories, one cannot fail to see the parallel between his personal life and so much of his writing.

[Wayfarer]

Ok... missing the point here...

It's not looks I was talking about... that was just a limited example.

Elves were more fair of voice, and eye, and mind than humans. It's not a looks thing. they're completely, radically different from us. Preternaturally so.

Think of it like the reverse of the orc situation. Orcs are absolutely, horribly dapraved. Elves are absolutely, wonderfully beautiful. A human could interact with either of them... but only if he falls or rises to thier level. That doesn't happen often.

It's a matter of them being in completely different levels. It's unthinkable, not because of some social convention, but because that's not the way natural laws in middle earth work. Only a higher purpose can change this.

[barrelrider110]

It's a matter of them being in completely different levels. It's unthinkable, not because of some social convention, but because that's not the way natural laws in middle earth work. Only a higher purpose can change this.

Elrond, the child of a mixed union chose immortality. Obviously JRRT imagined Elves and men (at least of higher breeding) to be nearly equal and as the creator of Middle Earth, doesn't he define those "natural laws?"

What about the Uruk-Hai? They were supposedly a cross between Goblin-men and Orcs (totally grosses me out to think about it). Orcs are basically elves with a bad makeover, correct? So it is entirely within the natural laws of Middle Earth to crossbreed. Cultural and a certain undefinable difference in awareness separate the two races, but biologically they are nearly identical.

Or am I missing your point?

[Rána Eressëa]

I'm agreeing with barrelrider110 here.

[mirrille]

Originally posted by FrodoFriend

I would hope that Elves and the other races of Middle Earth wouldn't be that shallow.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they were. The elves struck me as being EXTREMELY xenophobic (cough* Thingol...cough* Melian doesn't count. She's a goddess and who would pass up a chance to marry a goddess?) , especially by the time the war of the ring comes around. Elves and dwarves hate each other. Elves don't know about hobbits. Elves know that men are inferior and act like it, in general. Consider places like Gondolin, or Lothlorien, or Doriath. Those places are all shielded or guarded somehow from outsiders. It wouldn't give a human much chance to even get to know an elf, let alone develop a close enough relationship to contemplate marriage. I've only read the Sil and LOTR, but I'm getting an impression that most humans who managed to marry elves were men who were for some reason or other raised among elves. Except Beren who managed to sneak past a shield. The point is, you have to actually get around a barrier to even meet an elf. Not a likely occurence. Communities in ME tend to be very insulated, and elves are no exception. they seem to have the most spectacular barriers, so that's why i'm singleing them out.

Another barrier is that to marry a human, an elf would have to give up immortality. That's a big sacrifice considering that as an immortal you have until the end of the world to find someone to replace that short lived human. Why make the sacrifice? It really has to be spectacular to overcome that.

[ragamuffin92]

I've been enjoying these posts, folks.
One point to make to mirrille--remember that early in The Sil., Eru gave mortality to mankind as a gift,and, although people stopped viewing it that way, it seems to me that wherever the spirits of dead people ended up would have been pretty excellent, possibly even better than the Undying Realm. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been much of a gift--maybe like a fruitcake at Christmas, or something. ("WOW--a FRUITCAKE? For ME? Thank you SO much!! I'm overwhelmed with JOY.......NOT!!")

[Ñólendil]

I think Hobbits could probably breed with Men. Hobbits are akin to Men after all, and Tolkien called them 'a diminutive Race of Man' in a Letter. I think Hobbits are probably descended from Men in some way. The mingling there was probably rare because of the rarity of Hobbits and their shyness towards us, and also the considerable difference in heighth (using the average heighth of a Human, there are of course many among the Big Folk no taller than the Little Folk, or shorter).

[mirrille]

Originally posted by ragamuffin92
I've been enjoying these posts, folks.
One point to make to mirrille--remember that early in The Sil., Eru gave mortality to mankind as a gift,and, although people stopped viewing it that way, it seems to me that wherever the spirits of dead people ended up would have been pretty excellent, possibly even better than the Undying Realm.

Maybe so, but the intention behind the gift and the actual result turned out to be not quite the same thing. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the fact one person is expected to die tends to make the whole idea of interspecies love kind of transitory. Like, if I was an elf, and I met a human that I liked, assuming that I never ended up marrying him, he would maybe stick around for about 80-100 years ( i forget how long humans live back then, but bear with me. besides, I don't want to catch them TOO young ). In my 3000 years, (suppose I'm a young elf), I could go through about 30 lovers! as long as it never got too serious. I could go through even more we broke up earlier than that, which we probably would. And the more I saw how short these relationships were, the less likely I'd bother to initiate them. Why not just find myself a nice steady elf lord and settle down, if I happened to be marriage minded? Or not, if I like being single.

But I think that in the case of Middle Earth, geographical barriers are just a major basic obstacle. Everyone lives in their little communities, and there is not much mixing and traveling.

[Rána Eressëa]

Okay, basically by starting this, my point was "though it was (keyword) RARE, crossbreeding did occur between other races beside men and elves". Simply, do you agree or not? I don't care if it only happened once ever in eternity -- do you think it happened even just once?

[FrodoFriend]

Short answer: Nah. At least not willingly.

There are the Uruk-hai, but that was a sick experiment, not happy lovey-dovey crossbreeding.