The Blue Wizards

[fungilorde]

Does it say anything about Allatar or Oallando in any of Christopher's books?

[afro-elf]

There's a couple of past posts on the moot about them. But you jave to search for them 'cos I don't recall exactly were they are.

Sorry.

[Ñólendil]

Those names are only mentioned in Christopher's Books; Alatar and Pallando.

What afro-elf said, this has been covered here many times.

[sepulchrave]

with all due respect, having been a reader of Tolkiens work for twenty three years, I must object to your references to "Christophers books". Christopher Tolkien was the editor of his fathers posthumous legacy; whether unfinished, partial, incomplete, underdeveloped, or fragmentary. The task of the editor is formidable, but it is not his job to make additions or to engage in any attempt at rewriting. At the same time, it is not in the interest of research to dismiss work that may contradict the published body as the writing of another because this threatens a completist view of the works themselves. The volumes that Christopher Tolkien has prepared for the reading public are what they are, but they are his fathers work, be sure of that, lovingly arranged and sorted for our pleasure. My gratitude for this herculean effort, but credit for their authorship goes to whom it is due, and that is surely JRR Tolkien.

[Ñólendil]

I might have put Christopher Tolkien in quotes, as I was using fungilorde's words. He asked whether they were mentioned at all in 'Christopher's books', so I informed him they are only mentioned in those books to which he is referring. Anyway the History of Middle-earth and Unfinished Tales were published by Christopher Tolkien, I think that's all either of us meant by it.

[Findegil]

Sepulchrave I agree totally with your definition of the task of any editor and the things you like him to do and not to do. I agree also with your judgment over The Unfinished Tales and The History of Middle-Earth.
But I must say that Christopher Tolkien had gone a big step beyond the editors task in publishing The Silmarillion a specially in the chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath. But he had learned and with each publikation his style as an editor had become better and better and in the end he was able to give as an acount of his mistake in the mentioned chapter and the reason why he did it in this way.

Regards
Findegil

[noldorlord]

who are the blue wizards? Are they istari like gandalf or saruman???

[Lightice]

Yes. There were five Istari members.
Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando.
Last two, the Blue Wizards went to the East and were never heard again. They either were destroyed by Sauron, or fallen into darkness and servitude to him.

[Comic Book Guy]

Tolkien never said that they may have been destroyed by Sauron, or so I believe. His early idea was that the two Istari went to the lands east of Mordor, eventually they would forsake their mission and fond Magic cults to outlast the fall of Sauron.
Later, he decided that they would actually go the the lands east of Mordor and would stay faithfull to their mission, helping free peoples in their troubles and to resist Sauron.

Why is this thread in the Silmarillion forum?

[Ñólendil]

Er, it isn't. Maybe you should get some sleep, CBG.

[sepulchrave]

Findegil, in which volume of HoME is the correction? I don't have them all, just vols1,2,4,5,7&8. Is it Morgoths Ring?

[Findegil]

Sorry for the delayed answer. The "correction" as you call it, is not in volume 10 Morgoth's Ring. Since it is in the second part of the Silamrillion it is in the volume 11 The War of the Jewels.
But correction is the wrong word for it. It is more a listing of all the texts included in The History of Middle-Earth which are dealing with that theme. And then he gives an account of what he added an what were his reasons to do so. Only in some pionts he gives a hint what he would do today. So please don't expact a new chapter for The Silmarillion.

Regards
Findegil

[sepulchrave]

thanks..I am waiting until I can acquire the remaining titles in hardcover to complete my collection, but I may pick up the paperbacks in the meantime, so I can fill in the gaps.

[rashbold]

While the names of the Blue Wizards (S. Ithryn Luin) in Unfinished Tales are Alatar and Pallando, in a later source, the names are Morinehtar and Rómestamo, translated as "darkness-slayer" and "east-helper", respectively. This answer was already given somewhere in this forum, but you have to find it.

[Tar-Elendil]

the blue wizards were 2 of the istari who went east over middle-earth and all further knowledge of them were lost, or so i have heard and read. In places it says that in their journey to the east of middle earth saruman went with them...
anyone think saruman was rotten this far back and well...destroyed the blue wizards?
sabotage........

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally posted by Comic Book Guy
Why is this thread in the Silmarillion forum?

LOL!

*Twilight Zone music starts playing again*

[Wulažg]

I'd go for the whole cult thing since if they decided to actually DO something they would have made a huge ruckus. Unless they were jsut blasted away since Sauron had the Ring at the time.........

[Ñólendil]

Tolkien's final story, as I have said many times here on the Moot, was that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age, their names were Rómenstámo and Morinehtar, and that they were successful. Their job was not to defeat Sauron, as the Wizards of the Third Age were entrusted to do, but to cause dissension and dissaray in Sauron's forces in the East, and to help the few Easterlings resisting him (yes, not all Easterlings were "evil"). They succeeding at doing all this. Tolkien commented that if it hadn't been for the Blue Wizards the forces of the East would have greatly outnumbered that of the West in the War of the Ring.

[Tar-Elendil]

thanks for clearing that up..many stories are varied in place, such as the lays of beleriand...beleg joining the outlaws???
***shudder***

[Findegil]

I would think that their names were:
Quenya: Alatar -> Called in ME by Sindarin: Morinehtar
Quenya: Palando -> Called in ME by Sindarin: Rómestamo
And I would still say that they failed in the end. They clearly failed to find the hiding place of Sauron in the early third age.
And since it is more then once voted that Gandalf was the only successful wizard, I would assume that they left the right path in the end.

For the time when that happened I can only offer only a mere guess: I would think that they left their former course at about the time of Ondohir last but three King of Gondor or a little bit earlier. Up to that time there had never been a confederation between the peoples of the east and the south. But in that time they opened a war two-front war against Gondor. I would think that has some significance.

Regrads
Findegil