Canon? Or not?

markedel · 01-26-2002, 02:52 PM

What is considered Tolkien Canon? Does HoME "override" the Silmarillion? Or is it a matter of opinion? Is anything not canonical? And if it isn't-why not?

Thrain of the Shire · 01-26-2002, 04:47 PM

and one I have been pondering as I have read so many posts which have different views based on different readings.

I mean, we all know that JRR "developed" the world of ME and that, later in life, he actually changed many things (the whole Orcs from Elves versus Orcs from Men issue being just one) -- so I too would like to know if there is a "final version" or whether we just have to be specific as to which book we are following -- especially since many of the later books were really manuscripts collected and edited by his family, not him...

It's a bit like our Red Book -- there are many copies and each one tells it slightly differently.....

Ñólendil · 01-26-2002, 05:56 PM

It's completely a matter of opinion. I will only say that it's pretty well known that Tolkien felt bound by what was published in hs life (when he remembered), and this includes The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit or There And Back Again, The Road Goes Ever On (with Donald Swann) and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

Findegil · 01-26-2002, 07:45 PM

That's it Inoldonil. J.R.R. Tolkien didn't publish The Silmarillion that was done by his son. Chritopher. Chritsopher did also publish The History of Middle-Earth. (Small) Parts of The Silmarillion are really written by the editor. But in The History of Middle-Earth you can see clearly what is a komentray of the Editor and what is J.R.R. Tolkiens text, you get even some information about the manuskript and his history.

So for me it is clear that The History of Middle-Earth overrules The Silmarillion in anypoint of disagreement. But that doesn't settle the question of the final version since many texts in The History of Middle-Earth did speak one again the other.

The intresting question is how did we find a "weighting" for the texts?

Regards
Findegil

markedel · 01-26-2002, 07:58 PM

I suppose the Silmarillion version is the most readable and complete. The additions (and I've only skimmed Morgoth's Ring) look rather sketchy.

Sirithdal · 01-27-2002, 02:27 AM

The smoking canon is whatever JRR allows, even once, in my opinion. Lattitude should be embraced not constantly pilloried. The idea of canon in film-making, though, has an auspicious new entry in Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring. This stands with the best that's been done in the film medium; it may even be better! But let's not forget Tolkien, who certainly deserves to be re-recognized as one of the most important writers of pure fiction of the Twentieth Century, an author whose flesh, muscle and bones body of philological and canonical work sets him apart from much of the trash.

sbpollo1 · 01-27-2002, 09:35 AM

Very eloquent Sirithadal and I totally agree.

Findegil · 01-28-2002, 08:14 AM

I am sorry Sirithdale, but I can't totally agree with you.
The question is for what are you locking in the bocks of JRR Tolkien. If you only search for a diving board for your owne fantasy, then you are totally right. (And I agree with you that Peter Jackson had gone that way.) But if you would like that your fantasy fits in the Story of JRR Tolkien you had to be more serious about what is in their and what isn't.
And some (like me) will search for something like the "truth of Middle-Earth". That is hard and dry work and far away from fantasy. It is much more like the work of a historian. It will led you to read the texts over and over again. You will never stop learning about Middle-Earth. And it is much nicer when you have found some people to discuse with. But you will find that liberty is small in this area.

Best Regards
Findegil

markedel · 01-28-2002, 01:17 PM

There could be an "internal" canon explanation-Bilbo's Silmarrillion is an inaccurate translation of what actually happened, allowing us to read Morgoth's Ring with an unburdened heart.

Ñólendil · 01-28-2002, 05:27 PM

'But you will find that liberty is small in this area. '

How do you mean?

Findegil · 01-29-2002, 07:52 AM

Markedel is right with his fiew. We can say all stuff is "demaged" by the trading down trugh all this years until we can read it. That few must be part of any "source analysis". But it can't be the only point of fiew.

@Inodonil: What I menat was that, if you want that your piont of feiw is to stand a discussion in such a groupe of "Tolkien historians" you had to stick very close to your source texts. You can of course go mad with your theory about a special event, but to discuss it in such a groupe you need strong evidences out the text or noboddy will even listen intently.

Regards
Findegil

Sirithdal · 02-04-2002, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Findegil
But if you would like that your fantasy fits in the Story of JRR Tolkien you had to be more serious about what is in their and what isn't. . . And it is much nicer when you have found some people to discuse with. But you will find that liberty is small in this area.

Best Regards
Findegil

What I was trying to say is that if Tolkien is ambiguous about something (such as his Tom Bombadil), then we should be given as much lattitude in our interpretation as the given discrepancy allows. In these cases I think we are encouraged to speculate. But it is here that I strongly agree with you, because the speculation or theory must "fit" the facts and the spirit of what JRR has given us. Kein problem!

(Wo ist Geilenkirchen?)

Findegil · 02-04-2002, 06:29 PM

Nun Sirithdal, Geilenkirchen ist eine aufstrebende Kleinstadt im Kreis Heinsberg. Der Kreis Heisnberg ist der westlichste Kreis der Bundesrepulik Deutschland. Und Geilenkirchen liegt ungefähr in der Mitte zwischen Aachen und Mönchengladbach.

Hochachtungsvoll
Findegil

P.S.: Sorry for all this German talk, but since the Question was in German too, and I don't think ther is much intersst for the answer in a more international speech, it was easier for me to give it in German.

Sirithdal · 02-05-2002, 12:36 AM

Ich wußte nicht daß Deutschland Kreise hatte. Und steigende Kreise, an dem!

Blimey!

Arathorn · 02-05-2002, 01:21 AM

Ach so,

Was ist das im English? Mein Deutsch ist noch nicht so gut.

Danke,

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 02-05-2002, 11:08 AM

Yeah, my German is not so good either. Plus it is impolite to speak in another language that some don't understand, and it confuses the moderator. How do I know if you're flaming or not?

Findegil · 02-05-2002, 01:51 PM

Oh, it seems I had waken some intersset.

Well I will trie a translation for you

:

"Well Sirithdale, Geilenkirchen is a small but up coming town in the district of Heinsberg. The district of Heinsberg is the most westerly district of the Federal Republic of Germany. And Geilenkirchen is located nearly in the middle between Aachen and Mönchengladbach.

Respectfully
Findegil"

Since I dont think anybody out side Germany will know were the citys of Aachen and Mönchengladbach are located

, I will give you an simpler discription: If you lock on a map for the three-country-point were Germany, Belgium and the Nederlands join, you will be about 30 km south east of my home.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I hope this would have pass the censors even when they would have been able to read it.

P.P.S: I trie never to flame and normlay I am successfull at that.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 02-05-2002, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Findegil
Oh, it seems I had waken some intersset. Well I will trie a translation for you:

"Well Sirithdale, Geilenkirchen is a small but up coming town in the district of Heinsberg. The district of Heinsberg is the most westerly district of the Federal Republic of Germany. And Geilenkirchen is located nearly in the middle between Aachen and Mönchengladbach.

Respectfully
Findegil"

Since I dont think anybody out side German will now were the Citys of Aachen an d Mönchengladbach are located , I will give you an simpler discription: If you lock on a map for the three-country-point were Germany, Belgium and the Nederlans join, you will be about 30 km south east of me home.

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I hope this would have pass the censors even when they would have been able to read it.

P.P.S: I trie never to flame and are

Thank you for the translation Findegil. I know you know I was kidding.

I even have a hard time speaking and reading English, let alone anything else. God, I need to go back to school for a refresher

Arathorn · 02-05-2002, 10:15 PM

i see,

There were a lot of names in it. Nice to learn new things everyday.

01-26-2002, 02:52 PM	#1
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	Canon? Or not? What is considered Tolkien Canon? Does HoME "override" the Silmarillion? Or is it a matter of opinion? Is anything not canonical? And if it isn't-why not? __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

01-26-2002, 04:47 PM	#2
Thrain of the Shire Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Oxford -- (one) home of the man himself Posts: 28	Great Question... and one I have been pondering as I have read so many posts which have different views based on different readings. I mean, we all know that JRR "developed" the world of ME and that, later in life, he actually changed many things (the whole Orcs from Elves versus Orcs from Men issue being just one) -- so I too would like to know if there is a "final version" or whether we just have to be specific as to which book we are following -- especially since many of the later books were really manuscripts collected and edited by his family, not him... It's a bit like our Red Book -- there are many copies and each one tells it slightly differently.....

01-26-2002, 05:56 PM	#3
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	It's completely a matter of opinion. I will only say that it's pretty well known that Tolkien felt bound by what was published in hs life (when he remembered), and this includes The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit or There And Back Again, The Road Goes Ever On (with Donald Swann) and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-26-2002, 07:58 PM	#5
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	I suppose the Silmarillion version is the most readable and complete. The additions (and I've only skimmed Morgoth's Ring) look rather sketchy. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

01-27-2002, 02:27 AM	#6
Sirithdal Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 44	The smoking canon is whatever JRR allows, even once, in my opinion. Lattitude should be embraced not constantly pilloried. The idea of canon in film-making, though, has an auspicious new entry in Jackson's The Fellowship of the Ring. This stands with the best that's been done in the film medium; it may even be better! But let's not forget Tolkien, who certainly deserves to be re-recognized as one of the most important writers of pure fiction of the Twentieth Century, an author whose flesh, muscle and bones body of philological and canonical work sets him apart from much of the trash. Last edited by Sirithdal : 01-27-2002 at 02:41 AM.

01-26-2002, 07:45 PM	#4
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	That's it Inoldonil. J.R.R. Tolkien didn't publish The Silmarillion that was done by his son. Chritopher. Chritsopher did also publish The History of Middle-Earth. (Small) Parts of The Silmarillion are really written by the editor. But in The History of Middle-Earth you can see clearly what is a komentray of the Editor and what is J.R.R. Tolkiens text, you get even some information about the manuskript and his history. So for me it is clear that The History of Middle-Earth overrules The Silmarillion in anypoint of disagreement. But that doesn't settle the question of the final version since many texts in The History of Middle-Earth did speak one again the other. The intresting question is how did we find a "weighting" for the texts? Regards Findegil

01-27-2002, 09:35 AM	#7
sbpollo1 Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 10	Very eloquent Sirithadal and I totally agree.

01-28-2002, 08:14 AM	#8
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	I am sorry Sirithdale, but I can't totally agree with you. The question is for what are you locking in the bocks of JRR Tolkien. If you only search for a diving board for your owne fantasy, then you are totally right. (And I agree with you that Peter Jackson had gone that way.) But if you would like that your fantasy fits in the Story of JRR Tolkien you had to be more serious about what is in their and what isn't. And some (like me) will search for something like the "truth of Middle-Earth". That is hard and dry work and far away from fantasy. It is much more like the work of a historian. It will led you to read the texts over and over again. You will never stop learning about Middle-Earth. And it is much nicer when you have found some people to discuse with. But you will find that liberty is small in this area. Best Regards Findegil

01-28-2002, 01:17 PM	#9
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	There could be an "internal" canon explanation-Bilbo's Silmarrillion is an inaccurate translation of what actually happened, allowing us to read Morgoth's Ring with an unburdened heart. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

01-28-2002, 05:27 PM	#10
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	'But you will find that liberty is small in this area. ' How do you mean? __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-29-2002, 07:52 AM	#11
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	Markedel is right with his fiew. We can say all stuff is "demaged" by the trading down trugh all this years until we can read it. That few must be part of any "source analysis". But it can't be the only point of fiew. @Inodonil: What I menat was that, if you want that your piont of feiw is to stand a discussion in such a groupe of "Tolkien historians" you had to stick very close to your source texts. You can of course go mad with your theory about a special event, but to discuss it in such a groupe you need strong evidences out the text or noboddy will even listen intently. Regards Findegil

02-04-2002, 06:29 PM	#13
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	Nun Sirithdal, Geilenkirchen ist eine aufstrebende Kleinstadt im Kreis Heinsberg. Der Kreis Heisnberg ist der westlichste Kreis der Bundesrepulik Deutschland. Und Geilenkirchen liegt ungefähr in der Mitte zwischen Aachen und Mönchengladbach. Hochachtungsvoll Findegil P.S.: Sorry for all this German talk, but since the Question was in German too, and I don't think ther is much intersst for the answer in a more international speech, it was easier for me to give it in German.

02-05-2002, 12:36 AM	#14
Sirithdal Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 44	Ich wußte nicht daß Deutschland Kreise hatte. Und steigende Kreise, an dem! Blimey! Last edited by Sirithdal : 02-05-2002 at 12:37 AM.

02-05-2002, 01:21 AM	#15
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	Ach so, Was ist das im English? Mein Deutsch ist noch nicht so gut. Danke, __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

02-05-2002, 11:08 AM	#16
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Yeah, my German is not so good either. Plus it is impolite to speak in another language that some don't understand, and it confuses the moderator. How do I know if you're flaming or not?

02-05-2002, 01:51 PM	#17
Findegil Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Geilenkirchen, Germany Posts: 192	Oh, it seems I had waken some intersset. Well I will trie a translation for you: "Well Sirithdale, Geilenkirchen is a small but up coming town in the district of Heinsberg. The district of Heinsberg is the most westerly district of the Federal Republic of Germany. And Geilenkirchen is located nearly in the middle between Aachen and Mönchengladbach. Respectfully Findegil" Since I dont think anybody out side Germany will know were the citys of Aachen and Mönchengladbach are located , I will give you an simpler discription: If you lock on a map for the three-country-point were Germany, Belgium and the Nederlands join, you will be about 30 km south east of my home. Respectfully Findegil P.S.: I hope this would have pass the censors even when they would have been able to read it. P.P.S: I trie never to flame and normlay I am successfull at that. Last edited by Findegil : 02-05-2002 at 11:54 PM.

02-05-2002, 10:15 PM	#19
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	i see, There were a lot of names in it. Nice to learn new things everyday. __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

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