Graphics and SFX

[Talera]

I thought that all the graphics and special effects were really good in the film apart from when Galadrial was tempted by the Ring. Does anyone else think that that was extremely dodgy?!

[Pailan]

While the cgi on Galadriel was transparent to some degree, I found PJ's interpertation of her reaction to the temptation of the ring pretty well spot on, IMHO. Though, I wish her voice had been toned down a bit.

[coolismo]

I think pj should end his affair with the stop motion sequences like with the hill troll...they just look wooden and jar. Stick to cgi throughout.

[jerseydevil]

Talera: I agree - I think Galadriel was a bit over the top with the temptation. Also - I think Galadriel looked older then I thought she'd look. My impression of elves were always fair, smooth skinned. The same with Elrond. In my mind - they had too many wrinkles.

In terms of the troll - I think the sequence was only slightly better than Harry Potter's in terms of CGI quality. They still have a problem with creating humans realistically using CGI. It's obvious that Legalas - when he jumps off the trolls back - is computer generated. My feeling, if it doesn't look good then do something else. They just can not get the movements down right.

[Laurelyn]

When Legolas jumps off the troll's back he's computer generated??? I didn't notice that.
But yes, the Galadriel scene was a little cheesy.

[Comic Book Guy]

WETA did a great job with the Computer Generated animation, the Cave Troll is very detailed, though hard to spot. Weta and Peter Jackson made sure that details such as tears in his clothes, wounds, saliva and dirt were consistant and perfect to the limit of current technology. To compare the Cartoonish HP Troll to the Cave troll is rather uneducated.

Speaking of current technology, so far it's impossible to create prefect Human (Or Elven) physics with CG. If you look at other heavy CG work such as TPM, it's Human Cg looks unrealistic.

I thought that all the graphics and special effects were really good in the film apart from when Galadrial was tempted by the Ring. Does anyone else think that that was extremely dodgy?!

But yes, the Galadriel scene was a little cheesy.

It seems you have a problem with the interpretation of that scene rather than the CG work

[jerseydevil]

I know more about CGI work than what you think. But I wasn't referring to just the troll - I was talking about Legolas jumping off the back of him. The sequence as a whole was okay - but still it wasn't as natural as what ILM can do. And Rhythm & Hues doesn't produce the quality that ILM does, which is why there was a lot of problems with the CGI in HP.

Granted that LOTR was far superior to HP CGI wise - but it wasn't as good as I was expecting on some of the close up shots. For LOTR I was expecting ILM quality (look at Jar Jar Binks, although annoying, the Gunga and especially Watto).

And there is more to CGI than good textured mapping - there is realistic movement - and that's what I was referring to. It's also more noticiable than small details. That's why I noticed Legolas - he didn't move naturally when he jumped off the Trolls back.

But Peter Jackson is one of the founders of WETA Digital and was not going to go to a competitor to do the CGI. WETA did do a pretty good job in Contact though and they did a really good job in LOTR. Just realistic movements they had some problems with.

My feeling still stands - they should have kept Legolas out if they couldn't get the animation right for him jumping off the trolls back.

Also I checked out SIGGRAPH 's website to see if they had any info on WETA Digital - I was surprised they weren't listed in their company directory.

[Darth Tater]

That's because there hasn't been a Siggraph convention since Weta became a major player!

How can you compare WETA's CG human work to ILM's in such a way? I didn't notice that Legolas is CG in that shot (and it's only the second half that he is, first is bluescreen) till the third viewing. In TPM when Maul jumps off the speeder bike it immediately stood out like a soar thumb.

[jerseydevil]

well t8r - since we discussed this you know what I'm talking about. My only real problem was with Legolas. And also SIGGRAPH had a convention in LA in 2001 and this year it's in July in San Antonio. I'm still not sure why WETA isn't part of it.

And true there were a couple of problems with TPM - for instance the long shot of when obi wan and whatshisname slide out the chute on the trader's ship.

Just needed to respond publicly since u blasted me in ur post.

[anduin]

I understand what Jersey is talking about with the Legolas scene. Something about it just didn't look natural. Like they didn't have enough frames per second or something.

Overall the thing that I noticed about the CGI in LOTR is that I didn't notice the CGI...and to me that is what is important.

If SW is ever going to win an award for SFX (uneducated guess) they will need to have a category titled "Over Use of SFX".

[Comic Book Guy]

Actually I was refering to the part when Darth Maul dies and falls down the pit, even Indiana Jones SFX looked better. Its hard to do Human Skeletal structures without an actor doing motion capture to templete it.

[Darth Tater]

What about that shot where Maul jumps off the speeder bike? Makes me sick to watch it! ILM is talented, but they can be very very lazy. Just compare waterfalls. ILM used the old salt trick from the 70's, which looks ok, but has some obvious flaws, whereas WETA went out and filmed actual waterfalls and put them together in the computer. The difference is very very obvious.

There are only 3 CG shots I have problems with in LOTR, and I am incredibly picky about my cgi, so that's an amazing thing. Number one is some of the shots at the Fords Of Bruinen. There's some tacky water work there, but I'm pretty sure Animal Logic did that sequence so WETA can't be blamed. Second, and this is the big one, is a shot of Gandalf when he's talking to Elrond in Rivendell which has some crappy bluescreen edges around his form. Third is that Legolas shot, which is only a minor error IMO.

Next time you see LOTR watch the Falls of Rauros sequence closely. There's obviously no real world location like that, but it's all completely flawless! Now compare it to some of ILM's tacky waterwork and you'll be blown away.

[jerseydevil]

t8r: Hey I remember which Maul scene ur talking about now. Yeah, I thought that was pretty bad too. Comic Giy - I'll check out the scene ur talking about - but I think I remember that one. Unless they do motion capture - humans can not be realistically portrayed using a computer.

Overall I was impressed with the CGI in LOTR. I don't think I noticed that much of a problem with the Bruinen scene because I was so pissed at the script changes for the Flight to the Ford - that that was minor in my mind. The thing that gets me about the Gandlaf/Elrond scene is that that's a simple thing to fix with CGI now - so that's just plain laziness on having that slip by.

I don't think they could have used motion capture on Legolas jumping from the troll - I've never seen or heard of them being able to capture a person when the thing they will be put on is moving so fast like the troll. I just think that it was so cheesy - that they should have just cut out the part with Legolas being on the trolls back and then jumping off - or did it differently.

Like I said last night -the Balrog was awesome with the white fire of his mouth and the flames flaring up as he took a breath to roar. The Balrog I thought was some of the best close-up CGI work of an "organic" being I had ever seen.

I'm planning on going tonight to see LOTR again and I'll check out your points about Bruinen. And there is a lot of crappy CGI work in TPM too - I'm going to have to watch that again to refresh my memory on some of them. ILM is still one of the best in the business - but they do tend to take shortcuts on too many things.

Oh there may be a suspense/horror movie you guys may be interested in from the 70's - before CGI even existed. I can't remember the name - but I'll try finding out. In the movie, all acting is done by computer images. So a company hires models - scans them in to be used in commercials and movies. But then they start killing the models so they don't have to pay for the images anymore. It is a cool movie from what I remember.

[coolismo]

could one of you point me at a link for an explanation of CGI.




thanks

[jerseydevil]

I did list several companies in the thread above that are CGI and included links to their websites. The SIGGRAPH one can lead u to a lot of info I think. at least a lot of the companies that are involved with CGI. It's url is http://www.SIGGRAPH.org

[coolismo]

Just back from another viewing and I cant say i saw any blue line around anyone at Rivendell. Also I'm sure that the troll scene is standard stop motion with a model of Legolas actually animated. Didn't PJ say he wanted to use stop motion and cgi?

[Gerbil]

Yer what? You thought the troll bit is stop motion?
Ye gads, I think you need your eyes testing.

The whole troll is CGI. It is. No arguement allowed. Until I'm proved wrong, anyway

But yeah the legolas jumping down bit sticks out in my mind like a sore thumb. Seems so stupid that they can do bits like the Balrog (to my mind the best use of CGI I've ever seen, and I live for it and do computer graphics for a living), although it's a shame they didn't make it longer ), and then make another bit suck.

To my mind the legolas dropping bit looked plasticy and just not very realistic. Still, it's a sign of a good film where in 3 hours we are picking fault with 1 maybe 2 bits, especially when the film is so FX heavy.

Take TPM on the other hand. A what, 1 and a half hour film where theres 1 maybe 2 bits which don't deserve criticism of some description.

ILM now are so far behind the game it's scary. They thought they ruled and were caught on the hop by some people with less resources but more dedication.

You must have seen the trailers for AOTC, right? Looks rubbish - no two ways about it. To be honest after FotR came out, I reckon George Lucas firstly filled his pants, then secondly went back and planned to re-do a lot of his scenes. Because he needs to. If AOTC is bad, then following from the dismal failure that was TPM (don't judge by money, although sadly that's all studios do), then his third part will hopefully be shunned as indeed it deserves to.

For my money, these 3 prequels to SW should never have been made. But it's a cash cow, and as we all know, that's all Studios and bosses really give a damn about these days.

[samwise of the shire]

There's obviously no real world location like that, but it's all completely flawless!

Yeah. When I watched "A Passage To Middle Earth the making of the Lord Of The Rings" on Sci Fi I saw the Anduin River un computerized and didn't see Rauros Falls past that rockit was just flat and I wondered where the waterfall had gone. Thank you for explaining it Darth Tater.
I thought the Watcher in the Water theinks Frodo is a salt shaker scene was tackier then the Galdriel temptation viking opera woman scene. I keep on thinking to myself"How loud can you get Frodo?" and "You're not gonna get any salt out of that poor hobbit. Leave him alone he's been through enough."
Sam

[bropous]

I don't know CGI from stop motion, so I can't get into that aspect. All I know is that the battle scenes were great, loved the hordes and hordes of orcs in Moria, and cannot wait to see the Battle of Helms Deep and Pelennor fields.....as well as the semi-battle at the Morannon...