Bombadil's existence DENIED by the movie

Darkside Spirit · 01-12-2002, 01:06 PM

At the start of the film it says something like "The first age of the world is lost, for none now live who remember it" (if anyone can remember the exact wording, please correct me). Tom Bombadil is the oldest of the old - if you wade through much symbolism and romance concerning him, you get the idea that he has existed from the beginning of the world.

Therefore, for Bombadil to exist at all (not just be left out of the storyline), there must be at least one person who remembers the first age. Ergo, Bombadil doesn't even exist as far as the movie is concerned. Third most important character that has been "killed" - after Elendil and Gil-galad.

Gerbil · 01-12-2002, 01:12 PM

Let's not forget Bombadil doesn't exist in the film

Anyway, I have always taken the intro to be a 'look back', not from the tail end of the Third Age, but from NOW 2002 AD.

Remember that LotR and everything is a replacement history for this earth and England in particular.

This means to me, no-one remembers the first age means none of US people, you me everyone.

Galadriel does this voice over because she was the only person (excluding Bombadil and, possibly Fangorn) who was actually in Middle Earth from early in the First Age through to the start of the Fourth Age. Therefore I take the introduction as from her point of view in the west to humans now 2002 AD.

It also lends a special potency to the words regarding 'fact became legend, legend became myth' - how lucky we were that Tolkien found the Book of Westmarch and translated it into English for us

***Fat middle*** · 01-12-2002, 01:15 PM

i think you're taking this line too literally. Anyway, Bombadil importance for the rest of the world is minimal. He wasn't interested in the world outside his forest.

Cirdan would be the one killed by that line if you want to take it literally.

Why do you say Elendil and Gil-Galad have been killed by the movie?

Gerbil · 01-12-2002, 01:17 PM

My other point, which I failed to put in that post, was that all history changes in the re-telling, either through fortgetfulness (unlikely in Galadriel's case) or through better story-telling.

We didn't need to know Elendil or Gil-galad's name - indeed the film itself is very short on actual names (I've mentioned this elsewhere, but as examples - Galdriel is said once only by herslef, and Minas Tirith is never mentioned at all, it's always the white city).

For the discerning you'll also note the change in emphasis on Gollum's origins - in the intro it's almost as if he was the creature Gollum before he found the ring, not smeagol who killed Deagol (the actual ring-finder).

Which is a shame, because much of Tolkien's humanisation of Gollum in TTT and RotK comes from his shared history with Hobbits and the realisation he was once a free person.

Darth Tater · 01-12-2002, 05:34 PM

This is rediculous, by your reasoning Fangorn doesn't exist either.

Comic Book Guy · 01-12-2002, 07:37 PM

Celeborn, Gandalf (and the other Istari), Elrond, Cirdan and Sauron all lived in the first age also.

FoolofaTook · 01-12-2002, 07:43 PM

I was kinda upset by the fact that Tom Bambadil wasn't in the movie. I wanted to see what they would have thought he looked like and I wanted to see whay they would have made the old forest look like.

Gerbil · 01-12-2002, 07:55 PM

Istari were not in middle earth from 1st through to 4th age.
Elrond was not born until 2nd age (or was it tail end of first age?)
Sauron is hardly likely to recount the story

Cirdan, like Celeborn, were not part of the Eldar - they never really knew about what went on in Valinor or any of that stuff. Also, I think again they were not born near the start of the first age (not sure when Cirdan was born at all!).

Comic Book Guy · 01-12-2002, 08:02 PM

Cirdan, You are joking right? He was old as you could get, it is thought that he was one of the first Elves to awaken.

Quote:

Istari were not in middle earth from 1st through to 4th age.

I meant as their Maia form, same as Sauron.

Celeborn, was born in Gondolin I believe.

Elrond was born at the end of the first age.

Lightice · 01-13-2002, 06:32 AM

And Gandalf visited Middle Earth many times before his quest as part of Istari. It's mentioned in Silmarillion, that Olorin loved to walk among elves and men unseen, or as one of them, giving them inspiration and beautifut thoughts. So we might guess, that he knew lots about happenings of ME before becoming part of Istari.

Gerbil · 01-13-2002, 10:04 AM

Oops, apologies about Cirdan - I knew I was on shaky ground

Darkside Spirit · 01-13-2002, 11:39 AM

Tater's spelling is likewise rediculous

Arathorn · 01-13-2002, 12:00 PM

Wasn't Cirdan shown in the movie with Galadriel and Elrond (or was it his father Eärendel) as one of the 3 early bearers of the elven rings?

What do you guys think?

Gerbil · 01-13-2002, 12:38 PM

Yup, I thought that.

But when were the rings made? I thought it was second age, not first...

bropous · 01-13-2002, 04:40 PM

I think that "none now live who remember" was a reference of the world in 2002, and that Galadriel wasn't speaking, as narrator, from inside the story, but outside it, like a Greek chorus.

Also, Cirdan certainly was alive in the First Age, as were Galadriel, Celeborn, Thranduil, and other Elves not named in the film. Elrond and his brother, Elros, were both born towards the end of the first Age.

Celebrimbor forged the Three Elven Rings in approximately 1500-1590, Second Age.

Earendil did not possess one of the Elven Rings, as they were manufactured far after his passing into the West. The three original possessors were Galadriel, Cirdan, and Gil-Galad. Cirdan's ring was given by him to Gandalf upon Olorin's arrival at the Grey Havens from the West; Gil-Galad's ring went to his Herald, Elrond Half-Elven.

As for Bombadil, a MINOR, unimportant character to the entire story, he is not really all that missed in the great scheme of things. He only influences his own forest, and has no part in the major events of the story, unlike Fangorn/Treebeard.

Also, simply because a name is not mentioned in the film does not mean that the film KILLED THEM OFF. Thranduil is not mentioned, nor is Thrain, but both can be considered to exist, except outside the boundaries of the film's tale.

Gollum's "relationship" to Hobbits may very well be covered in The Two Towers film.

Starr Polish · 01-13-2002, 04:45 PM

In the movie, PJ actually does, very slightly imply that Gollum was not always whatever he is after he gets the ring. You'll see that when the hand grabs the ring out of the water, it is very human/hobbit like, but then, when they show his hand open with the ring in it, it is grey.

bropous · 01-13-2002, 05:02 PM

Good points, Starr, although we readers of the books know it was not Smeagol who took the Ring from the depths of Anduin, but Deagol.

Hapira_Brandybuck · 01-13-2002, 06:23 PM

In the end, the only thing Bombadil contributes to the story is rescuing the hobbits from the Barrow-downs where they got their swords

they got around that by simply having Aragorn give them to them

but.... isn't it ..... Pippin or Merry's barrow-blade that helped to slay (Kill.... whatever happened to it) the King of the Nazgul? ...... hmm

edit: also, I do believe I heard a cry of "Elendil" out of Legolas or Aragorn during the battle on the shores of the Anduin or maybe it was just my imagination so... yeah

Messa · 01-13-2002, 06:34 PM

Gerbil, maybe the ring fell back into the water when Smeagol killed Deagol

FrodoFriend · 01-13-2002, 06:42 PM

Well, Deagol is really as unnecessary as Bombadil. His only contribution is showing how the Ring takes a hold on Smeagol immediately and makes him kill his best friend, as well as explaining Smeagol's quick fall into evil by showing that he started his ownership of it with murder. None of which REALLY needs to be explained in the movie.

01-12-2002, 01:06 PM	#1
Darkside Spirit Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 47	Bombadil's existence DENIED by the movie At the start of the film it says something like "The first age of the world is lost, for none now live who remember it" (if anyone can remember the exact wording, please correct me). Tom Bombadil is the oldest of the old - if you wade through much symbolism and romance concerning him, you get the idea that he has existed from the beginning of the world. Therefore, for Bombadil to exist at all (not just be left out of the storyline), there must be at least one person who remembers the first age. Ergo, Bombadil doesn't even exist as far as the movie is concerned. Third most important character that has been "killed" - after Elendil and Gil-galad.

01-12-2002, 01:12 PM	#2
Gerbil Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: London, UK Posts: 797	Let's not forget Bombadil doesn't exist in the film Anyway, I have always taken the intro to be a 'look back', not from the tail end of the Third Age, but from NOW 2002 AD. Remember that LotR and everything is a replacement history for this earth and England in particular. This means to me, no-one remembers the first age means none of US people, you me everyone. Galadriel does this voice over because she was the only person (excluding Bombadil and, possibly Fangorn) who was actually in Middle Earth from early in the First Age through to the start of the Fourth Age. Therefore I take the introduction as from her point of view in the west to humans now 2002 AD. It also lends a special potency to the words regarding 'fact became legend, legend became myth' - how lucky we were that Tolkien found the Book of Westmarch and translated it into English for us __________________ Gerbil gerbil@theburrow.co.uk

01-12-2002, 01:15 PM	#3
*Fat middle* Mootis per forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Spain Posts: 61,439	i think you're taking this line too literally. Anyway, Bombadil importance for the rest of the world is minimal. He wasn't interested in the world outside his forest. Cirdan would be the one killed by that line if you want to take it literally. Why do you say Elendil and Gil-Galad have been killed by the movie? __________________ Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.

01-12-2002, 01:17 PM	#4
Gerbil Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: London, UK Posts: 797	My other point, which I failed to put in that post, was that all history changes in the re-telling, either through fortgetfulness (unlikely in Galadriel's case) or through better story-telling. We didn't need to know Elendil or Gil-galad's name - indeed the film itself is very short on actual names (I've mentioned this elsewhere, but as examples - Galdriel is said once only by herslef, and Minas Tirith is never mentioned at all, it's always the white city). For the discerning you'll also note the change in emphasis on Gollum's origins - in the intro it's almost as if he was the creature Gollum before he found the ring, not smeagol who killed Deagol (the actual ring-finder). Which is a shame, because much of Tolkien's humanisation of Gollum in TTT and RotK comes from his shared history with Hobbits and the realisation he was once a free person. __________________ Gerbil gerbil@theburrow.co.uk

01-12-2002, 05:34 PM	#5
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	This is rediculous, by your reasoning Fangorn doesn't exist either. __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

01-12-2002, 07:37 PM	#6
Comic Book Guy Best Ex-Administrator ever Join Date: May 2001 Location: Ireland Posts: 60,547	Celeborn, Gandalf (and the other Istari), Elrond, Cirdan and Sauron all lived in the first age also.

01-12-2002, 07:43 PM	#7
FoolofaTook Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: ??? Posts: 214	I was kinda upset by the fact that Tom Bambadil wasn't in the movie. I wanted to see what they would have thought he looked like and I wanted to see whay they would have made the old forest look like.

01-12-2002, 07:55 PM	#8
Gerbil Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: London, UK Posts: 797	Istari were not in middle earth from 1st through to 4th age. Elrond was not born until 2nd age (or was it tail end of first age?) Sauron is hardly likely to recount the story Cirdan, like Celeborn, were not part of the Eldar - they never really knew about what went on in Valinor or any of that stuff. Also, I think again they were not born near the start of the first age (not sure when Cirdan was born at all!). __________________ Gerbil gerbil@theburrow.co.uk

01-13-2002, 06:32 AM	#10
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	And Gandalf visited Middle Earth many times before his quest as part of Istari. It's mentioned in Silmarillion, that Olorin loved to walk among elves and men unseen, or as one of them, giving them inspiration and beautifut thoughts. So we might guess, that he knew lots about happenings of ME before becoming part of Istari.

01-13-2002, 10:04 AM	#11
Gerbil Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: London, UK Posts: 797	Oops, apologies about Cirdan - I knew I was on shaky ground __________________ Gerbil gerbil@theburrow.co.uk

01-13-2002, 11:39 AM	#12
Darkside Spirit Hobbit Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 47	Tater's spelling is likewise rediculous

01-13-2002, 12:00 PM	#13
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	Wasn't Cirdan shown in the movie with Galadriel and Elrond (or was it his father Eärendel) as one of the 3 early bearers of the elven rings? What do you guys think? __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

01-13-2002, 12:38 PM	#14
Gerbil Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: London, UK Posts: 797	Yup, I thought that. But when were the rings made? I thought it was second age, not first... __________________ Gerbil gerbil@theburrow.co.uk

01-13-2002, 04:40 PM	#15
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	I think that "none now live who remember" was a reference of the world in 2002, and that Galadriel wasn't speaking, as narrator, from inside the story, but outside it, like a Greek chorus. Also, Cirdan certainly was alive in the First Age, as were Galadriel, Celeborn, Thranduil, and other Elves not named in the film. Elrond and his brother, Elros, were both born towards the end of the first Age. Celebrimbor forged the Three Elven Rings in approximately 1500-1590, Second Age. Earendil did not possess one of the Elven Rings, as they were manufactured far after his passing into the West. The three original possessors were Galadriel, Cirdan, and Gil-Galad. Cirdan's ring was given by him to Gandalf upon Olorin's arrival at the Grey Havens from the West; Gil-Galad's ring went to his Herald, Elrond Half-Elven. As for Bombadil, a MINOR, unimportant character to the entire story, he is not really all that missed in the great scheme of things. He only influences his own forest, and has no part in the major events of the story, unlike Fangorn/Treebeard. Also, simply because a name is not mentioned in the film does not mean that the film KILLED THEM OFF. Thranduil is not mentioned, nor is Thrain, but both can be considered to exist, except outside the boundaries of the film's tale. Gollum's "relationship" to Hobbits may very well be covered in The Two Towers film. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-13-2002, 04:45 PM	#16
Starr Polish Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slow down and I sail on the river, slow down and I walk to the hill Posts: 2,389	About Gollum In the movie, PJ actually does, very slightly imply that Gollum was not always whatever he is after he gets the ring. You'll see that when the hand grabs the ring out of the water, it is very human/hobbit like, but then, when they show his hand open with the ring in it, it is grey.

01-13-2002, 05:02 PM	#17
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Good points, Starr, although we readers of the books know it was not Smeagol who took the Ring from the depths of Anduin, but Deagol. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-13-2002, 06:23 PM	#18
Hapira_Brandybuck Enting Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NW IN Posts: 75	In the end, the only thing Bombadil contributes to the story is rescuing the hobbits from the Barrow-downs where they got their swords they got around that by simply having Aragorn give them to them but.... isn't it ..... Pippin or Merry's barrow-blade that helped to slay (Kill.... whatever happened to it) the King of the Nazgul? ...... hmm edit: also, I do believe I heard a cry of "Elendil" out of Legolas or Aragorn during the battle on the shores of the Anduin or maybe it was just my imagination so... yeah __________________ -Hapira Brandybuck 'My dear Frodo!' exclaimed Gandalf. 'Hobbits really are amazing creatures, as I have said before. You can learn all that there is to know about their ways in a month, and yet after a hundred years they can still surprise you at a pinch. Last edited by Hapira_Brandybuck : 01-13-2002 at 06:27 PM.

01-13-2002, 06:34 PM	#19
Messa Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Slovenia, Europe Posts: 1	Gerbil, maybe the ring fell back into the water when Smeagol killed Deagol

01-13-2002, 06:42 PM	#20
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	Well, Deagol is really as unnecessary as Bombadil. His only contribution is showing how the Ring takes a hold on Smeagol immediately and makes him kill his best friend, as well as explaining Smeagol's quick fall into evil by showing that he started his ownership of it with murder. None of which REALLY needs to be explained in the movie. __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
The Entertainment Do You Know This...	Grey_Wolf	Entertainment Forum	100	12-05-2007 08:30 AM
The Animated Movie	bmilder	The Hobbit Movies	202	09-26-2006 05:59 PM
Emphasis on Characters in the Book and Movie	Nurvingiel	Lord of the Rings Movies	15	08-02-2006 12:35 AM
EntmootCon Planning (LotR Movie Meeting)	bmilder	General Messages	73	08-20-2001 03:32 PM
movie quote game	anduin	Entertainment Forum	85	01-22-2001 06:52 AM