Notes towards Orcology

[Kiri]

I realize that what I write here is mere speculation. Nevertheless, I have wondered, ever since first encountering Middle Earth decades ago, just how the Orcs might live.

Narrative demands say they merely are convenient bad things. Have them slain by the billions (if needs be) to illustrate just how mighty the heroes are. They serve this purpose well. Likewise, it is obvious that the Professor had no sympathy for these creatures.

They are uniformly painted as an "evil" people, but I would like there to be more to this. In a sense, my illicit inquisitiveness is a mark of respect for the completeness of the Professor's sub-creation. Were Middle Earth just a conventional fantasy toss-out setting, I'd not bother wondering.

Therefore, if you will bear with me, I would like to put forth these speculative notes upon Orcs in their "natural" state. Note that I will adopt the affectation of being a scholar *within* Middle Earth--but a fairly sloppy one--remiss in quoting his sources and prone to flights of fancy. Imagine some Fourth Age Gondor dilettante who fancies himself a "scholar" because he's allowed to muddle through the libraries. Without Further Ado:

On the Orcs

To investigate the "natural" state of Orcs has two perils--one is ontological, the other material. The material difficulty I have circumvented by relying upon tales brought back by those "fortunate" enough to have witnessed Orcs close-up and survived the experience. The ontological peril cannot be so trivially dismissed.

It is the plain and unvarnished truth that Orcs are not, at their root, a natural race. Whatever their origins, Chaos stalks their souls, Darkness has bruised them, the Hand has pawed them. They have been forcibly twisted away from natural behavior. Thus, when attempting to understand a behavior, keep in mind that the Orc is a bred thing--a creature made for a purpose.

First we will consider the Orc physically. It is, by all accounts, an unlovely creature. All agree that it is squat--however tall it might be. Oddly enough, descriptions differ greatly beyond this point. I see two explanations. In the first case, perhaps there are actually many races of Orcs, just as there are many races of men. As the Hobbit is a type of Man, thus there could be at least as much variation among Orcs.

Another possibility, one that is yet to be demonstrated, is that perhaps no right-minded person has actually ever *seen* an Orc. M- was a master of deceit and knew the minds of his enemies very well. He might likely know that what one man might find hideous, another might find merely distasteful. It is also known that there are no and never have been any sort of sorcerer, necromancer, shaman, or other magician among the Orcs. Thus, perhaps it may be true that M- twisted whatever innate capacities might have been possessed by the unfortunates of the First Age (when magic was more easily grasped) into automatically putting forth whatever form or image a viewer would find repulsive.

In any case, the ordinary Orc is possessed with poor eyesight, excellent smell, and good hearing. It is a strong creature, stronger than a man of the same height--if less graceful. (The "Uruk Hai" will be treated elsewhere.) It has remarkable lack of discernment in its diet, although it prefers flesh to any other food. Likewise, it seems to prefer stench and squalor whenever possible. Those Orcs that have been captured go out of their way to foul their cells.

It is said that the Orc was bred by M- as a source of military power and a spreader of terror. As such, M- wished it to become plentiful in short time. Thus, Orcs breed with great ease. Their fertility is simply astonishing, and they usually give birth in litters of six to twelve young.

Given that the ordinary Orc is roughly the size of a man, this means that Orc get are almost unformed. They are born even more helpless than are our children, and about one third of them do not survive to the opening of their eyes. Unlike our own people, who would consider this a tragedy, it appears that an Orc female parent (to call her a "mother" would be to profane that word) considers this a snack. Even though Orcs suckle their young, they show no grief at their death.

Orc breeding is not regulated by bonds of marriage or kin exclusion. They breed as freely as they can, indulging in unclean couplings. As freely as they can is not necessarily as freely as they would like. A strong Orc will take control of as many females as he can manage. Orcish fractiousness prevents the sort of arrangement one might see in certain deer. Females feel no loyalty towards any male when it comes to breeding.

When a female comes into her time, male Orcs (who smell the state), compete for her attention. While this usually takes the form of combat, it has been reported that Orcs under the sway of a more sophisticated leader can have this urge channelled into a less lethal form of competition.

The proportion of females to male is unknown, and it is difficult to tell at a sane distance which is which.

This is not to say that there are no vestiges of tender family ties. Even M- was not able to eradicate this gift of Eru. Orcs do recognize bonds of parentage--but only after the offspring have weaned. (It should be noted that Orc offspring who make it past weaning are much more likely to survive into adulthood than are younger offspring.) Nevertheless, noble lines, clans and families as we know them are quite alien to Orcs.

Lack of marriage is mirrored by lack of other rituals so normal to right-minded beings. Orcs know of no naming rituals, no dedications, no loyalty (but see below), no funerals, no worship. Unlike men turned to evil, M- had no need to invent a false religion for the Orcs, and S- likewise did not need to revive any among them (although it is rumored that lesser S-, in his folly, attempted this with his half-breeds). Likewise, they do not have offices nor officials among themselves. All Orc social commerce is done on a personal and face-to-face basis.

[end part 1]

[Kiri]

An astute reader may wonder how I could have make the previous claim, knowing that officers can and are found among Orc military groups. This is a lone exception. Orcs show remarkable ability to adapt to and function within a military hierarchy. Indeed, it is second nature to them. Once some non-Orc has established "primacy", they quickly, amost eagerly, fall into and utilize whatever hierarchy is dictated for them. But left to their own devices, they quickly forget the ranks and seem incapable of coming up with any for themselves, instead returning to a simple rule of brute strength.

Indeed, brutality is most likely the one hallmark of Orc behavior that all accounts agree upon. No race exceeds the Orcs in wanton cruelty nor savagery. As far as can be determined, Orcs are remarkably sadistic creatures, and torture is actually a form of mass entertainment for them. (This is, in part, why there were no "half-Orc" creatures known before little S- bred them. Orcish love of cruelty meant that that sort of maltreatment of prisoners or slaves inevitably led to the victim's death.)

While an ideal victim for torture shows is an elf, usually it is a human slave who is chosen for the affair. At times, or so it is said, Orcs will hold competitions whereat torturers of reknown will attempt to exceed each other in inflicting the greatest amount of damage upon victims while keeping them alive and conscious. When Orcs have no outsiders available, they will use each other. Unlike those men who are sadistic monsters, they prefer to avoid inflicting agonies upon animals and will only resort to this when a sapient victim is not practical, and in that case a wild animal is to be preferred to domestic. The only exception to this is when an animal is to be slaughtered for food--in which case Orcs insist that torture "seasons the meat".

Given these proclivities, it is hard to imagine Orcs maintaining *any* level of society or culture. Nevertheless, they do. However, Orc societies never grow larger than a village unless acted upon by some outside force. When a village grows large, some group will pack up and move on. If an area is excessively Orc infested, instead of committing war upon each other, Orcs will actually *migrate* before taking that expedient.

An Orc society is based on simple brutal force. The strongest Orc pushes the next strongest around, who themselves bully the next in line. Pre-adult offspring seem to be exempt from this bullying, as are gravid or nursing females, although the offspring do often develop their own hierarchy of bullying. The hierarchy is visible in preening behaviors. Lowest-status Orcs preen (eat the lice off) all other Orcs. At the top is the head Orc of the village, who preens nobody. Lowest-status Orcs have slaves preen them. At times, an Orc will roll itself in substances that even *Orcs* find too putrid for their tastes in order to reinforce their higher status upon whatever unfortunate preens it next.

Knowledge in Orc villages is passed down on a pure bloodline basis. Left to their own devices, the only knowledge taught in male lines are combat and torture. All craftwork (including smithing and weaponmaking) and even what little writing Orcs maintain on their own is restricted to females. When a superior creature is able to exert "primacy", the Orcs, of course, alter their behavior to suit that creature's whims. Thus, upon S-'s orders, Orcs adopted some measure of literacy wholesale, in order to facilitate passing orders and messages along.

We now come to the concept of "primacy". Even though Orcs are fractious, ill-tempered, brawling, violent creatures, they show positively insensible cohesion and fortitude when led by some creature like the Witch King or other lieutenants of S-, or when acting on the behest of someone like S- or little S-. This is not by accident but by design. Unlike any other race, Orcs have no ability to rebel. It is obvious that they feel no loyalty to any concept, nation, or even their own race. Nevertheless, when a powerful leader takes control of them, they serve unto their deaths or until that leader is undone by some outside force.

This is because Orcs have been bred to acknowledge what loremasters call "primacy". Any being able to assert primacy can count on the unswerving loyalty of the Orcs under his control. Orcs automatically respond to power or its appearance. The easiest way to establish primacy is to wield some measure of M-'s power. Unmastered Orcs immediately recognize it and instinctively fall in line.

Killing a large number of unmastered Orcs can also result in primacy--but only if the intent is to subjugate them. Success seems to be greater (according to tales from the east) if the attempt is completely unprovoked and accompanied by great brutality. Finally, Orcs can be brought under primacy by any sufficiently powerful being who bends his will upon unmastered Orcs. It should be noted that rumor has it that this is a dangerous practice, since the spirits of Orcs bear a taint that can poison even the Wise--or so it is claimed.

[Pailan]

Well Kiri,
what's left to say on this most interesting and very well put matter. Perhaps after I have digested this a bit further more constructive thoughts will come to me. As I read your 2 postings one question lingers for me, can you as a fourth age scholar address the origions of orcs? It is my understanding that M could not truly make anything but just twisted what was already to his purposes. So then aren't orcs a twisted fallen Elves who refused the initial call to come to the West?

Welcome to the Ent Moot may your roots grow deep!

[emplynx]

Wow. That was extremely impressive. Did you get all that information from the LotR and the Silmarillion or the HoME things like that?

[Kiri]

As I said, he's a pretty sloppy "scholar". Indeed, I think it's a horrible mistake for people to presume that all such writings about Middle Earth are infallable and omniscient. The Professor would contradict himself, and I'm not sure that it was always a matter of "revision". If we are really supposed to look at Middle Earth as a long ago and far away, then any statement about it must ultimately be provisional.

[Kiri]

As for the source of my information, let us say that I got it from Middle Earth in a similar way that the Professor got his.

I try to avoid regurgitation and recompilation.

[Ñólendil]

An interesting type of fan-fiction, and better written than most of the generic sort. I haven't really delved into your Orcology and paid attention to every detail (for one thing I can't read it quickly, the vocabulary is not all that easy), I'll try to do that and give you some feedback. It looks pretty cool though. One thing that 'jumped out' at me: Orcs are generally short, not just squat, in addition to being bowlegged. This is said by Tolkien several times (if not so directly in the LotR narrative, then certainly in several Letters). I think most Orcs were probably Dwarf-sized. The Uruk-hai though considered 'huge' by Orkish standards were nonetheless 'almost man-high' (for instance see the great Orc in the black mail in the Chamber of Mazarbûl). It was only the Half-orcs and Goblin-men that were the size of normal Men.

Have you considered that you could feign to be a scholar of modern times, exploring the finer points of a Race first brought to light by the great historian and translator: J. R. R. Tolkien? Why not be a Seventh Age scholar, exploring your own ancient works found in forgotten libraries and dark, secluded corners of the world?

[Lightice]

Actually orcs had pretty good eyesight, at least in dark. Uglug said something like, that "These worms are good at something. They can see in dark darn well".
And if I remember correctly, at least trolls never mated of their own free will, but by orders of some dark power.

[Wayfarer]

If I may add my twenty silver.

Chapter 1:Origins.

Since it is well testefied to and established in the Laws of Arda that true creation is the sole domain of the Allfather, we know that the Orcs cannot be original creations/

Translation: Only God can make stuff. Orcs are cheap ripoffs

There is also a great deal of trustworty information from which we can determine the following: Other than Orcs, the sentient and semisentient races in Arda are Ainur, Elves, Men, Dwarves, Halflings, and Trolls. Seeing as the Ainu in service to Morgoth are both well attested to and of a completely different degree of power than Orcs, it is reasonable to assume they are not the base stock. Furthermore, as neither Dwarves nor trolls are evidenced to be compatible with Men, while orcs have been definitively proven to be so, they cannot either represent the base species. Halflings, while attested to be a derivitive of men, and thus likely intercompatible, are unknown for several thousand years after the appearance of orcs, and thus are also ruled out as root ancestors. So, of our original choices, only the Edhel and the Edain remain viable, being the only possible ancestors who can breed with men.

Translation: They're either Elves or Men.

Eldarin scribal tradition refers to the capture and subsequent torture of large numbers of Avari, those dark elves who remain still in the corners of Middle Earth, by the Enemy in the First Age. Common belief holds that the Orcs were created from these unhappy prisoners, in much the same manner that dragons and trolls must have been bred from as yet undetermined animal strains.

Translation: I hear they're mutant Elves

Furthermore, the traits which can be determined in Orcs are, when they can be compared to Elves and Men, are very often similar to Elves. They are keen of Eye and Ear and Scent, almost preternaturally so. They are sometimes, though not generally, possesed of an incredible aptitude for stealth. The are quick, and very strong, pound for pound stronger than either Elves or Men, indeed, the strongest race in Middle Earth after dwarves. They seem also to share the remarkable stamina of the elves, capable of moving continuously for days or weeks while loaded with heavy armor, and seemingly abandoning sleep altogether.

Translation: Elves are sounding really good right about now.

Furthermore, when one looks at the inherent strengths and weaknesses in this vile species, it can be determined that, in origin, they are an almost exclusively nocturnal breed. They are dark, often black of skin, and show a marked preference for dark colours in thier belongings. They gravitate towards a troglodyte existance, living often in caves and tunnels. The common breeds are able to see incredibly well in the dark. These traits, while giving them a marked advantage over the free people at night or in darkness and gloom, are negligeable or, in fact, detrimental during the daytime. This is consistent with the theory that they were bred during the age of the stars, during which they would have been quite formidable, from elves, which are likewise fondest of the night, and are a formidable species in their own right.

Translation: They're nocturnal-I'm betting Elves.

In other respects, the orcs are closer to Men. It has been stated by reputable sources that Men in service to the dark lords often reach a level of brutality very close to that of the Orcs. In behavior they are completely unlike elves, though whether this could be accounted for by thier breeding is as of yet unclear.

Translation: Then again...

All in all, the evidence suggests it is quite likely that the original orcs were derived by dark arts from captive elves, although perhaps mannish bloodlines have been integrated in at various times in history. They are, however, in many ways completely removed from either of these races, having taken on a hideousness and depravit all their own.

Translation: Elves then, with just a touch of Man. Not that it matters much.

[Wayfarer]

Chapter 2; Physical Appearance

Orcs are, overall, very similar to the Children of Illuvatar. It hardly needs to be said that they are a bipedal species, walking semi-upright. They have five fingers, opposable thumbs, and the mandatory two eyes, ears, and a mouth. Well, most of them do. In almost all respects they are similar to Humans and Elves.

Translation: They're humanoid. Get over it.

Orcs are somewhat smaller than Elves or Men, although defenitive measurements are, for obvious reasons, not availablee. They are usually considered to be about the height of a dwarf, but as they are generally hunched over, with bowed legs, they may be measurably taller than this. Somewhere in height between dwarves and men is a fair estimate.

Translation: About four to five feet in height.

Orcs are very strong, and generally very muscular. This lends itself to the common conclusion that they are 'stocky' or some other adjective that denotes a large amount of muscle mass. They are not. Most orcs, it is true, are very muscular, due to the rigours of thier life, however they are much thinner than dwarves, and even the strongest orcs are unlikely to reach the proportions of a troll, or even a large man. They tend to fall in build somewhere between Elf and Man, somewhat small framed, but very muscular, and strong.

Translation: Orcs are tough, but not beefcakes.

Orcs are also, without exception, hideous and ugly. They vary from the only slightly nauseating to the absolutely revolting, but this is more a result of breeding and a 'natural' if that word can be used of orcs, tendancy towards ugliness, just as elves have a tendancy towards fairness. In may be said, therfeor, that as elves are mare fair than is possible for man, so orcs are more disgusting. In addition to this, they lack anything resembling hygeine, and have no thought at all for thier appearance. They will not make even the slightest attempt to improve thier appearance, although they usually do not go out of thier way to make it more hideous. Generally very dirty, they tend to have pitted and knotted skin, although, perhaps due to this, it is unknown if they permanently scar. Orcs do not find themselves hideous, but then, they do not seem to care. An orc is more concerned with pleasing itself than with what anyone else thinks.

Translation: Orcs are-you guessed it- UGLY.

Aside from this, there is as much diversity among orcs as ther eis among men. some are very dextrous, some are very strong. There are breds that are taller and shorter than the average, and, although this is hard to verify, it is assumed that there are different eye, hair, and skin colours.

Translation: other than that, they have lots of differences.

[Wayfarer]

I'm tired of the Rp, so I'll just be blatent here.

Orcs are, socially, like wolves. The only loyalty they have is self preservation, and the social heierachy is determined by strength and skill in combat. Thus particularly large and viscious bloodlines may establish some sort of long term order over a tribe, but most often the case is anarchy. An orc who kills the current leader would most likely be recognized as leader himself.

Orcs are indeed cruel and brutal, but among themselves this behavior is somewhat limited. No orc will feel the slightest remorse upon brutally killing one of it's kin, but two orcs that moments ago were engaged in a duel to the death will break off and fight side by side should a common for (i.e. another race) appear.

Also, Orcs will not fight among themselves if it endangers them. It seems that they hoghly value self preservation, and will back down or not fight at all if it would likely result in death.

This is likely why they are so willing to follow a strong, deadly leader.

Like wolves, or other pack animals, orcs lef to their own devices will form relatively small groups. thus, without a strong leader, they will be able to do little more than small raids.

Orcs also tend to congregate in certain areas. In these places, of example, the misty mountains, they have something approaching a crude civilization.

While orcs are cruel and sadistic, the industrial torture you have described is highly unlikely. In the case that a prisoner is taken, it is far more likely that the captor will kill him on the spot, slowly and painfully indeed, but quickly if this is not possible. Some tribes of orcs take slaves, but this practice is almost always done with small groups of unsuspecting victims, and they are then put to forced labour rather than killed. In battle, no orc even thinks of anything less than killing.

Orcs do not preen. The suggestion is ludacrist.

Likewise, you assertion that knowledge in clans or tribes is restricted to the females. I can't even begin to understand why you woulld think this. While, in creatures like orcs, a strong female with valuable knowledge would be recognized as a peer by male orcs, any who could not prove themselves would be treated as chattel. Some females would be able to learn useful trades, but would still be looked down upon by stronger male orcs.

In fact, it is highly likely that craftsmanship would be limited mostly to stronger, more intelligent males. Females, unless able to fight or otherwise earn the fear of males (respect being a foreign concept) would be considered Snaga, slaves to whoever was strong enough to force them to obey.

(please forgive me if this following bit is offensive to you. I'm simply trying to be as 'realsitic' as possible about the way orcs act. Note that, though you may disagree with my conclusion, there are many humans that are almost this bad when it comes to sex.)

In regards to mating, my singular observation is this: Orcs are barbaric and selfish, if an orc male felt like it, and if he was strong enough, he would rape any female he chose and be done with it. Orcs have no need for anything else. Rather than competing for attention, the stronger males would simply hav ethier way with her. They might fight among themselves as to who went first, but she would have little say in the matter.

However, a female strong enough to resist would likely kill a few, and be left alone after that. Orcs seem to operate based on two things-fear, and strength. They would not be particular about letting a strong female fight beside them, but a weaker specimen, male or female, would be considered 'snaga' and of little use.

As far as Childbearing goes, I doubt that they would have multiple littlers. Far more likely, in my mind, the females are almost constantly ovulating, with short incubation cycles and fast maturing broods of one or two. Thus the subservient females in the tribe would be almost constantly producing children, which would account for the explosive numbers of orcs. It is a nessicity that these offspring would grow up very quickly, perhaps maturing fully at as young as five to ten years. This is merely speculation.

Overall, the orc 'civilization' seems to operate under a very primitive rule and heierachy. It goes something like this: 'I'm bigger than you, And I can kill you if I want, so you'd better shut up and do what I say before I do so!'. This, in essence, explains why there is so little 'rebellion' amongst orcs, even while those considered peers fight amongst themselves to the death.

[bropous]

Welcome to the Entmoot, kiri. Now that I've gotten the niceties out of the way, let me ask you a simple, yet salient question:

Where in the HECK did you get that GARBAGE?

How dare you presume to know more of Orcs than the Master himself? What a pompous, self-important screed you vomited forth here. And, how DARE you call John Ronald a "poor scholar"?

John Ronald himself was sickened by fans who felt as if they had written his works themselves. What, do you now think yourself as the heir apparent of Tolkien's works?

I'd like for you to quote ONE example from the Master's works to back up your self-inflated thesis. I saw NO citations, NO quotations to back up your OPINIONS, for that is what your entire espousal is constructed from. Baseless, factless, verbose tripe is what you posted here. Orcs born helpless? No real structure to society? What are your sources? What are your facts? What is your research?

I would have been far more polite had you not had the unmitigated GALL to call John Ronald a "poor scholar." That got this EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO's Irish up. I have seen some totally foundationless, wild-eyed speculation on this message board so far, but your accusation of the Master as a "poor scholar" shows you don't know your hinder from a hole in the ground on the history of the author, or his works, let alone the subject of Orcs.

Quote: "As for the source of my information, let us say that I got it from Middle Earth in a similar way that the Professor got his. I try to avoid regurgitation and recompilation."

Oh, so now you are saying you WROTE the Lord of the Rings? "I got it from Middle Earth in a similar way that the Professor got his" is an incredibly asinine, snide, and ludicrous comment. John Ronald, THE Master, wrote over a period of a lifetime, editing and re-editing, slaving away between Oxford and Leeds lectureships and professorships, between organizing Civil Defense during the Blitz of World War Two and grading countless graduate-level essays, very few of which, I suspect, reached such a nadir of lack of reasoning and intellect as you have exhibited here for all to see.

IF you could POSSIBLY see past the inner walls of your own colon, you might actually pick up "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien" and READ what this man went through to create the incredibly detailed world of Middle Earth. Do you actually mean to intimate that Middle-Earth exists in reality somewhere and somehow you are being CHANNELED this information, and that Tolkien simply got the books the same way?

This incredibly TALENTED AND THOROUGH SCHOLAR went through blood, sweat and tears and an entire lifetime to create an entire world, an entire mythology, an entire detailed history and something like NINE different languages, you blithering fool. What in the heck, aside from this wayward, pig-ignorant, Philistine attack on his scholarship you have blighted this intelligent message board with, have YOU created?

I await your apology to John Ronald, the highly insightful and intelligent Mooters on this message board, and the world of literature for being so presumptuous, insulting, and disrespectful of this brilliant scholar's lifework.

I predict instead of an apology, you will simply blather on and anon in another self-centered, self-glorifying, and utterly meaningless attack on a man whose shoes you are not worthy to lick. A retarded, dyslexic clam with writer's cramp is more capable of actual scholarship than you have exhibited here.

John Roald Ruel Tolkien a poor scholar? BOLLOCKS!!

[ringbearer]

Uhh...what bropous said!

Except...Middle Earth did exist...I know, I've been there!

[bropous]

Wayfarer: To save a you tad of typing, and a few runs around the bush, I offer the following citation:

Orcs were Elves who were taken by Morgoth's forces when the Elves still lived in the Vale of Cuivienen, prior to the discovery of the Firstborn of the Children of Iluvatar by Orome. These Elves were tortured and maimed by the Great Enemy, and as a result, bred the race of Orcs. SOURCE: Quenta Silmarillion, "Of the Coming of the Elves", Page 50.

Orcs is twisted Elves, my good friend.

[Let's see you do THAT, kiri. Chapter and verse. Sheesh.]

[Lightice]

Orcs are, socially, like wolves. The only loyalty they have is self preservation, and the social heierachy is determined by strength and skill in combat. Thus particularly large and viscious bloodlines may establish some sort of long term order over a tribe, but most often the case is anarchy. An orc who kills the current leader would most likely be recognized as leader himself.

You don't know much about wolves, do you? That is medieval vision of them. Wolves rarely kill each other, for example. That's all just pointless beliefs.
Though you might be right about orcs...

[bropous]

Good points re: Wolves, Lightice. Wolves' loyalty is not simply to self-preservation, they are totally dedicated to a very strict social hierarchy, and actually take actions showing greater loyalty to the safety and continuation of the pack than selfish self-preservation.

As for Orcs' societal structure, a good read of Tolkien's letters shows that the Orcs indeed WERE to have an established social hierarchy, and although they had not the dedication to the "pack", there WERE well-established steps on the social ladder. Orcs were drawn up on military lines, and Tolkien saw Orcs all around him in his life, even in the British Army. Anyone who knows how a military force maintains effectiveness realizes that it is a very well-structured ladder of reporting and responsibility. SOURCE: "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien"

Orcs were not anarchic beasts; they held together as cohesive military units. In fact, you don't really see Orcs of one band cutting at each other in internicine conflict; the only conflicts you see, such as between the Orcs of the Red Eye and those of the White Hand, or the Orcs of the Red Eye and Orcs of the White Tower, were between separate BANDS to whom ultimate allegiance was not common. The Orcs of the Red Eye and those of the White Tower may have been serving, ultimately, Sauron, but in their perception, those of the Red Eye perceived their prime responsibility was to the Dark Lord, whilst those of hte White Tower saw their ultimate responsibility to that of the Lord of the Nazgul, "ruler" of the tower of Minas Morgul. SOURCE: "The Two Towers, "The Uruk-Hai" and "The Choices of Master Samwise"."

However, in a seeming contradiction to my assertions, Gorbag and Shagrat, commanders of units in the Red Eye and White Tower livery, talk of running off "with a few good lads" after the War and setting up their own society, with no "bosses" to tell them what to do. Zo. Orcs were obedient as long as fear held them in check, but given an opportunity, would bugger off to set up shop on their own.

All in all, they were "nassssty, nasssty Orcsssesss..." and not capable of full trust unless in fear of their commanders.

[Ñólendil]

Bropous, the origin of the Orcs, despite what The Silmarillion as published has to say, is a matter of debate. It's not as though Tolkien was bound by what had never been published after all. His latest idea was that the Orcs were corruptions of Men, not Elves.

John Ronald himself was sickened by fans who felt as if they had written his works themselves. What, do you now think yourself as the heir apparent of Tolkien's works?

Kiri was just engaging in a bit of fan-fiction. Tolkien wanted folks to expand upon his world, you know. In Letter 131 he said

Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make abody of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story -- the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the arth, the lesser drawing splendour from he vast backcloths -- which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. It should posess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our 'air' (the clime and soild of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe: not Italy or the Aegean, still less the East), and, while posessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely fond in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be 'high', purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land long now steeped in poetry. I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.

The emphasis is of course mine.

I think you have entirely misunderstood kiri, he's inventing and he hasn't hidden that fact. 'I realize that what I write here is mere speculation. Nevertheless, I have wondered, ever since first encountering Middle Earth decades ago, just how the Orcs might live.' he said in the beginning of his post.

And right before he embarks upon his Orcology he says this: 'Therefore, if you will bear with me, I would like to put forth these speculative notes upon Orcs in their "natural" state. Note that I will adopt the affectation of being a scholar *within* Middle Earth--but a fairly sloppy one--remiss in quoting his sources and prone to flights of fancy. Imagine some Fourth Age Gondor dilettante who fancies himself a "scholar" because he's allowed to muddle through the libraries.'

When Kiri said 'As I said, he's a pretty sloppy
"scholar"' he was referring to his own Fourth Age scholar-character.

[bropous]

Inoldonil, I did mean to append my previous posts on this thread, to make a bit of clarification:

I took offense with her [I kind of got the impression kiri was a she] posting, not with the things she stated about Orcs, but what she said about JRR Tolkien being a "poor scholar", and this bit:

"As for the source of my information, let us say that I got it from Middle Earth in a similar way that the Professor got his. I try to avoid regurgitation and recompilation."

Both assertions are what really got my goat in this instance, and caused me to take up the "poisoned pen" in response. I admit the opposition to her posts was a bit strident [okay, okay, a whole lot strident], and for that I should apologize, but just can't bring myself to do so, simply because of the two quotes I have listed here seemed so blatantly inconsiderate to JRR. This led me to point out flaws in her own "scholarship."

Of course she has the right to make leaps of logic and try to flesh out for her own such hypotheses, but in attacking John Ronald as a "poor scholar," a man who taught more classes in pure scholarship that she has had hot dinners, an Oxford professor for many years, she crossed over into insulting the very man whose life labors produced such fine works of literature as we all love. The bit about getting information "from Middle Earth the same way the Professor got his" smacked of pomposity and disrespect for the hard work Tolkien put into it, and tantamount to a claim that somehow he did not come to his writings by the hard slog and toil he obviously went through. Mayhaps this was not her intent.

I must admit, Inoldonil, had I not been currently reading the "Letters" I may not have reacted in such a knee-jerk manner, but please forgive this vehemence as influenced by being totally caught up in awe of Tolkien's development of his writings, and how much time and effort he dedicated to this work, as well as keeping up his tutorial responsibilities.

Color me chastened, paint me as having learned yet another good lesson in human relations, and may I remember to restrain the "charging stallions" of my own overactive critical nerve in future, even in defense of those things which I love and respect so strongly. Fair enough?

[bropous]

"As I said, he's a pretty sloppy "scholar". Indeed, I think it's a horrible mistake for people to presume that all such writings about Middle Earth are infallable and omniscient. The Professor would contradict himself, and I'm not sure that it was always a matter of "revision"....

Actually, read in context, Inoldonil, this REALLY looks like she is calling TOLKIEN the "pretty sloppy scholar" and not giving that appellation to her creation, the mythical Fourth-Age scholar. If I am wrong in this instance, I can certainly admit it, but I don't think, as to this example, that I am.

[Ñólendil]

Well, you see, kiri never said Tolkien was a poor scholar. What kiri said was that his or her own scholar character was sloppy. And I think the regurgitation quote was just explaining that he or she was inventing; doing some fan fiction. I've edited my previous post, you may have missed some things I said. Kiri admits that the Orcology is just speculation, and makes it clear that he or she is supposed to be a so-and-so Fourth Age scholar in Gondor.