Musings upon a Fifth Viewing

bropous · 01-10-2002, 01:49 PM

Well, I saw the film for the fifth time on Monday, and here are a couple of observations:

1. Boromir. If you note, when Boromir trips Frodo and demands the Ring, the clasp of the cloak we all know Galadriel gave to him, the leaf-shaped clasp, is undone. To me this is a "subliminal suggestion" of his breaking with the honor of the Fellowship; none of the other characters have the clasp undone at any time. However, when he appears to save Merry and Pippin from the falling blow of the Uruk-Hai's axe, the clasp is re-fastened, indicating he has re-joined the Fellowship in his mind, and regained his honor. Beautiful touch, Mr. Jackson.

2. Bilbo. The tale of the trolls he spins to the tiny Hobbit children at the Birthday Party is really a cute scene, especially the looks of wonder in their wide eyes. I'm not one who really gets all mushy over kids, but that was really cute!

3. Pippin. When they flee from the scythe of Farmer Maggot, and fall over the edge of the precipice to land in the Road, Pippin's face is just inches from submersion in a big pile of horse manure, and is staring right at it. That's when he says, "Whew! That was close!" Didn't catch that part til this viewing. Silly me.

4. Rivendell. In another thread, someone pointed out that the railings in the Last Homely House are only chest-high to the Hobbits. This is correct. However, if one looks at the height of the doorframes, they are all man-or elf-height. To me this is not all that inconsistent, as Elves are very sure-footed, and not likely to trip and fall over a railing, but smaller visitors, like Hobbits or Dwarves, might. There IS a precedence for visitors of smaller stature to Elrond's haven [in The Hobbit], who knows, maybe they were put in then, or had been there as Dwarves had visited Elrond over the years.

5. Saruman, Gandalf and wine. When Gandalf shows up at Bag End at the beginning of the film, Bilbo offers him "something stronger" than tea, the "Old Winyards". Gandalf refuses politely, requesting just tea. also, at the Party, he seems to be drinking, again, tea in a ceramic mug whilst Merry and Pippin are washing the dishes. However, in Saruman's study at Orthanc, both are drinking red wine. Now, was there some attempt to indicate Gandalf was a teetotaller at the beginning and then a slip, or is it that he simply accepted wine at Orthanc because of the hard ride? Minor point, I know...

6. Gandalf in the Libraries of Minas Tirith. On another thread, someone took issue with Gandalf smoking a pipe whilst perusing the ancient tomes, stating it created a fire hazard among the archaic, valuable writings [okay, the person took issue with ANYONE smoking ANYTHING in the film, but stay with me here]. However, did that person not also see that the library was lit by CANDLES?? Hmmm??? Or that he was led to the stacks he was looking for by a woman carrying an open, sputtering torch? Fire hazard from the pipe and not from the candles nor the torch? Hmph.

All in all, time #5 made me fall deeper in love with the film. I cried more this time than any previous viewing, mayhaps because at the beginning I "filed away" my knowledge of the story and allowed myself to become enmeshed in the film wihtout pre-knowledge, for the most part, of what was to occur, taking each momenyt as it existed instead of through a filter of what I knew was to come. I think I enjoyed it so much more exactly because of that.

Just my EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO opinion...humbly submitted...

Arathorn · 01-10-2002, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
Well, I saw the film for the fifth time on Monday, and here are a couple of observations:

...
2. Bilbo. The tale of the trolls he spins to the tiny Hobbit children at the Birthday Party is really a cute scene, especially the looks of wonder in their wide eyes. I'm not one who really gets all mushy over kids, but that was really cute!

3. Pippin. When they flee from the scythe of Farmer Maggot, and fall over the edge of the precipice to land in the Road, Pippin's face is just inches from submersion in a big pile of horse manure, and is staring right at it. That's when he says, "Whew! That was close!" Didn't catch that part til this viewing. Silly me.
...

Just my EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO opinion...humbly submitted...

on #2:
I thought it was cute too. It kinda reminded me of C3PO telling "god stories" to the ework kids at the endor moon.

on #3:
I've been looking at this scene after 5 viewings myself and am still not sure if it's horse manure but it also looks like broccoli.

ChildofEru · 01-11-2002, 12:13 AM

Quote:

3. Pippin. When they flee from the scythe of Farmer Maggot, and fall over the edge of the precipice to land in the Road, Pippin's face is just inches from submersion in a big pile of horse manure, and is staring right at it. That's when he says, "Whew! That was close!" Didn't catch that part til this viewing. Silly me.

How can you tell its horse manure?
It might as well be cow or other bovine droppings

***Tessar*** · 01-11-2002, 12:21 AM

5. Saruman, Gandalf and wine. When Gandalf shows up at Bag End at the beginning of the film, Bilbo offers him "something stronger" than tea, the "Old Winyards". Gandalf refuses politely, requesting just tea. also, at the Party, he seems to be drinking, again, tea in a ceramic mug whilst Merry and Pippin are washing the dishes. However, in Saruman's study at Orthanc, both are drinking red wine. Now, was there some attempt to indicate Gandalf was a teetotaller at the beginning and then a slip, or is it that he simply accepted wine at Orthanc because of the hard ride? Minor point, I know...

well some how I don't see a powerful Isitary keeping peperment tea on hand

also it would have seemed odd for him to wandering around orthanc with a mug of tea.

so if that was all that he had.... well even though I hate wine I GUESS I might drink it if I was really thersty

bropous · 01-11-2002, 01:03 AM

ChildofEru: I knew it to be horse manure, instead of cow manure, because of the shape of the "ploppings". Okay, it's rather a disgustingly embarassing thing to be an "expert" on the droppings of animals, but in my MUCH younger years, in a phase I thankfully outgrew, in our search for psilocybe cubensis, incredibly psychoactive mushrooms, my friends and I became quite talented in spotting cow pats, from which only the treasured fungus sprouted. That's how I can tell "horse doo" from "cow doo". Also, I think Jackson put that stuff there to show that the Ringwraiths had been patrolling the Road.

And no, Arathorn, that ain't broccoli, unless it was horse-processed first!

[Did I welcome you to the Moot yet? If not, a hearty welcome to you!]

**hama** · 01-11-2002, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bropous
Well, I saw the film for the fifth time on Monday, and here are a couple of observations:

1. Boromir. If you note, when Boromir trips Frodo and demands the Ring, the clasp of the cloak we all know Galadriel gave to him, the leaf-shaped clasp, is undone. To me this is a "subliminal suggestion" of his breaking with the honor of the Fellowship; none of the other characters have the clasp undone at any time. However, when he appears to save Merry and Pippin from the falling blow of the Uruk-Hai's axe, the clasp is re-fastened, indicating he has re-joined the Fellowship in his mind, and regained his honor. Beautiful touch, Mr. Jackson.

Love you B-man but the unfastened and then fastened clasp is as likely to be the result of a forgetful continuity girl as a master
touch by P.J. But overall I think the post is quite good.

bropous · 01-11-2002, 01:59 AM

I dunno, hama, O Master Bard, I really think the clasp on Boromir's cloak was on purpose...it just makes such a significant, subtle point....and I'm gonna be dadgum disappointed if it is only a continuity problem...however, if it were, and I were Peter Jackson, I'd claim "of course, that's exactly how I directed it, mate! Gimme that Oscar!"

Anise · 01-11-2002, 02:06 AM

I went today to see it for the third time and will probably go again tomorrow.

I am just so in love with this movie and the image and feeling that it leaves me with each time I see it.

I think your points about the cloak clasp is quite intriguing.

Thank you for sharing.

Anise

coolismo · 01-11-2002, 06:06 AM

Ok I have decided to trat the movie as another appendix to LOR and focus on how it visually extends some themes of the book and ignore the mutillations that turn LOR into LAH (Last Action Hero).

Seeing it only 2nd time (got a free ticket) I noticed how useful the preface is. The showing of the one ring on Saurons finger emphasised that the power of the ring comes from the owner appropriating it. Only when the ring is appropriated (not just owned) by the bearer does its full shadow get cast on the individual and its power is projected. Also Saurons helmet is mirrored nicely in the architecture of the tower at Orthanc. Standing up like a huge black finger it signifies Sarumans quest for the same singular power.
I also liked the way that Frodo rescues Sam at the end. The outstreched hand was beautifully framed and made visual the importance of the hand/finger (fellowship/ego) contrasting symbolism of the book.
I took comfort breaks in Lothlorien and when the wizards has their fight because they are too bad.

Atisha · 01-15-2002, 12:57 PM

I saw LOTR four the fourth time yesterday, and it won't be the last time.
Up to yesterday, I had only seen the german version. But that didn't stop me from falling in love with the film instantly. There are sooo many charming details you can get lost in, that it's really worth seeing it over and over again.
I finally got to see the original version yesterday, and it was like ... whow!
Christopher Lee's voice made me tremble, and I especially loved the way he spoke out Morrrdorrr!
Billy Boyd's scottish accent was great to hear, too, and fitted nicely to Pippin.
Well, I could go on for hours, but I'll spare you the tons of little things that made the film for me.

As for Boromir's clasp, now that you mention it, that really is a beatuiful touch!! (Even if it was just a coincidence...)

ragamuffin92 · 01-15-2002, 01:26 PM

I've seen the film twice, so far, and the second time, it seemed to me that the ring shrunk (shrank?) in Isildur's hand, as he was turning it around in his fingers. Did anyone else see this?

Also, Atisha, I agree completely on C. Lee's and B. Boyd's voices. I laughed my face off at the Council when Pippin looked up innocently and asked "Where are we goin'?" The brogue definitely added a lot to the humor of the moment.

Vardasoroniel · 01-15-2002, 03:02 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ragamuffin92
[B]I've seen the film twice, so far, and the second time, it seemed to me that the ring shrunk (shrank?) in Isildur's hand, as he was turning it around in his fingers. Did anyone else see this?

yes, the ring did accomodate itself to isildur's hand - as i think it would to any of it's captives fingers. it also grows larger and slips off those fingers when it needs to move on in its attempts to return to sauron (such as when gollum 'loses' it and bilbo 'finds' it).

i've seen the movie twice, also. the first time just to catch the flow of pj's retelling of the story; the second to look closely at the scenery, architecture, & costuming. i'll most likely see it many more times to capture every last bit out of it.

next time i'll look closely at the clasp to boromir's cloak - i think that may truly have been a symbolic gesture put in by pj.

ragamuffin92 · 01-15-2002, 03:15 PM

As they say in Brooklyn, you've got a pernt, there.

bropous · 01-15-2002, 04:41 PM

Welcome to the Moot, Vardasoroniel!

A quick note: I was mistaken about Boromir's clasp. Actually, the clasp whcih came undone was the clasp of his original cloak, beneath that which was given him by Galadriel. My mistake. Who knows, maybe we could say his OWN resolve was breaking, and that was why the clasp was undone, but that the Lorien cloak staying fastened meant his loyalty to the Fellowship would override his personal loyalty to his city and people, but that is probably stretching it, and not just a bit.

Also, the ring DID shrink [I ain't wording it so I have to battle between "shrank" and "shrunk"!] in Isildur's glove.

And I agree about the pronunciations. They were perfect, and Christopher Lee's "Morrrdorrr" gave me chills too!

Vardasoroniel · 01-15-2002, 04:51 PM

no problem here in stretching the symbolism of the clasps

! i'm the sort of person who likes to explore seemingly innocuous happenings & trying to tie them into some larger whole

. unfortunately the tie-ins don't always mesh seamlessly, but it's fun, nonetheless, to follow the twists and turns of tortuous reasoning!!

i was surprised at first, when i heard saruman and gandalf roll the 'r's for mordor - and at first i thought it was just a sinister affect - but when i went back and checked the tengwa letters, it is indeed supposed to be trilled. the elven language advisors for the movie did a good job in promoting the correct pronunciation.

Arathorn · 01-15-2002, 10:07 PM

Yup! I also liked the way the wizards said morrrdorr.

But I'm also quite impressed with the way Elrond pronounced Isildur when he was having a flashback about the last great battle..ahhh..the accented 2nd "i"...

luinilwen · 01-15-2002, 11:39 PM

you can tell some elvish (or linguistic) specialists had a hand in it. (eg. the h being pronounced as ich-laut (sounds like you're about to spit) not breath h, the trilled r etc.) but they really had to have that detail, as the language had already been established by tolkien, and the fans who are fluent in elvish really would have had their knickers in a twist had it been inaccurate. i think all the armour and weaponry was hand made too... can anyone confirm that?

Atisha · 01-16-2002, 06:05 AM

As far as I know, you're right about the handmade weaponry, luinilwen. It's really amazing how they worked out even the tiniest details...
As for the elvish language being used in the movie, it sounded great in the original version. With the german speakers, much of its magic and beauty got lost; it just sounded too pathetic, too forced.

Lightice · 01-16-2002, 11:36 AM

It's idiotic to even try to change spoken language of any movie. Text is always a better solution, but for some reason, americans, french and german always translate the spoken language.
I can't understand why. Can't those people read, or what (no offense meant)?

Vardasoroniel · 01-16-2002, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lightice
I can't understand why. Can't those people read, or what (no offense meant)?

many people i know can't read fast enough to enjoy a movie. sad, but true

! so, most of them tend to shy away from foreign language movies.

01-10-2002, 01:49 PM	#1
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Musings upon a Fifth Viewing Well, I saw the film for the fifth time on Monday, and here are a couple of observations: 1. Boromir. If you note, when Boromir trips Frodo and demands the Ring, the clasp of the cloak we all know Galadriel gave to him, the leaf-shaped clasp, is undone. To me this is a "subliminal suggestion" of his breaking with the honor of the Fellowship; none of the other characters have the clasp undone at any time. However, when he appears to save Merry and Pippin from the falling blow of the Uruk-Hai's axe, the clasp is re-fastened, indicating he has re-joined the Fellowship in his mind, and regained his honor. Beautiful touch, Mr. Jackson. 2. Bilbo. The tale of the trolls he spins to the tiny Hobbit children at the Birthday Party is really a cute scene, especially the looks of wonder in their wide eyes. I'm not one who really gets all mushy over kids, but that was really cute! 3. Pippin. When they flee from the scythe of Farmer Maggot, and fall over the edge of the precipice to land in the Road, Pippin's face is just inches from submersion in a big pile of horse manure, and is staring right at it. That's when he says, "Whew! That was close!" Didn't catch that part til this viewing. Silly me. 4. Rivendell. In another thread, someone pointed out that the railings in the Last Homely House are only chest-high to the Hobbits. This is correct. However, if one looks at the height of the doorframes, they are all man-or elf-height. To me this is not all that inconsistent, as Elves are very sure-footed, and not likely to trip and fall over a railing, but smaller visitors, like Hobbits or Dwarves, might. There IS a precedence for visitors of smaller stature to Elrond's haven [in The Hobbit], who knows, maybe they were put in then, or had been there as Dwarves had visited Elrond over the years. 5. Saruman, Gandalf and wine. When Gandalf shows up at Bag End at the beginning of the film, Bilbo offers him "something stronger" than tea, the "Old Winyards". Gandalf refuses politely, requesting just tea. also, at the Party, he seems to be drinking, again, tea in a ceramic mug whilst Merry and Pippin are washing the dishes. However, in Saruman's study at Orthanc, both are drinking red wine. Now, was there some attempt to indicate Gandalf was a teetotaller at the beginning and then a slip, or is it that he simply accepted wine at Orthanc because of the hard ride? Minor point, I know... 6. Gandalf in the Libraries of Minas Tirith. On another thread, someone took issue with Gandalf smoking a pipe whilst perusing the ancient tomes, stating it created a fire hazard among the archaic, valuable writings [okay, the person took issue with ANYONE smoking ANYTHING in the film, but stay with me here]. However, did that person not also see that the library was lit by CANDLES?? Hmmm??? Or that he was led to the stacks he was looking for by a woman carrying an open, sputtering torch? Fire hazard from the pipe and not from the candles nor the torch? Hmph. All in all, time #5 made me fall deeper in love with the film. I cried more this time than any previous viewing, mayhaps because at the beginning I "filed away" my knowledge of the story and allowed myself to become enmeshed in the film wihtout pre-knowledge, for the most part, of what was to occur, taking each momenyt as it existed instead of through a filter of what I knew was to come. I think I enjoyed it so much more exactly because of that. Just my EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMEDDCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO opinion...humbly submitted... __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-11-2002, 01:59 AM	#7
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	I dunno, hama, O Master Bard, I really think the clasp on Boromir's cloak was on purpose...it just makes such a significant, subtle point....and I'm gonna be dadgum disappointed if it is only a continuity problem...however, if it were, and I were Peter Jackson, I'd claim "of course, that's exactly how I directed it, mate! Gimme that Oscar!" __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-11-2002, 02:06 AM	#8
Anise Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: the land of make believe Posts: 14	I went today to see it for the third time and will probably go again tomorrow. I am just so in love with this movie and the image and feeling that it leaves me with each time I see it. I think your points about the cloak clasp is quite intriguing. Thank you for sharing. Anise __________________ ~happy as a girl that lives in a world of make believe~ (r.s.)

01-11-2002, 06:06 AM	#9
coolismo Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: south england Posts: 93	ok lets make the best of it Ok I have decided to trat the movie as another appendix to LOR and focus on how it visually extends some themes of the book and ignore the mutillations that turn LOR into LAH (Last Action Hero). Seeing it only 2nd time (got a free ticket) I noticed how useful the preface is. The showing of the one ring on Saurons finger emphasised that the power of the ring comes from the owner appropriating it. Only when the ring is appropriated (not just owned) by the bearer does its full shadow get cast on the individual and its power is projected. Also Saurons helmet is mirrored nicely in the architecture of the tower at Orthanc. Standing up like a huge black finger it signifies Sarumans quest for the same singular power. I also liked the way that Frodo rescues Sam at the end. The outstreched hand was beautifully framed and made visual the importance of the hand/finger (fellowship/ego) contrasting symbolism of the book. I took comfort breaks in Lothlorien and when the wizards has their fight because they are too bad.

01-15-2002, 12:57 PM	#10
Atisha Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bad Lippspringe, Germany Posts: 10	I saw LOTR four the fourth time yesterday, and it won't be the last time. Up to yesterday, I had only seen the german version. But that didn't stop me from falling in love with the film instantly. There are sooo many charming details you can get lost in, that it's really worth seeing it over and over again. I finally got to see the original version yesterday, and it was like ... whow! Christopher Lee's voice made me tremble, and I especially loved the way he spoke out Morrrdorrr! Billy Boyd's scottish accent was great to hear, too, and fitted nicely to Pippin. Well, I could go on for hours, but I'll spare you the tons of little things that made the film for me. As for Boromir's clasp, now that you mention it, that really is a beatuiful touch!! (Even if it was just a coincidence...) __________________ I'm not Irish; kiss me, anyway!

01-11-2002, 12:21 AM	#4
*Tessar* Master and Wielder of the Cardboard Harp of Gondor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: IM IN UR POSTZ, EDITIN' UR WURDZ Posts: 6,433	5. Saruman, Gandalf and wine. When Gandalf shows up at Bag End at the beginning of the film, Bilbo offers him "something stronger" than tea, the "Old Winyards". Gandalf refuses politely, requesting just tea. also, at the Party, he seems to be drinking, again, tea in a ceramic mug whilst Merry and Pippin are washing the dishes. However, in Saruman's study at Orthanc, both are drinking red wine. Now, was there some attempt to indicate Gandalf was a teetotaller at the beginning and then a slip, or is it that he simply accepted wine at Orthanc because of the hard ride? Minor point, I know... well some how I don't see a powerful Isitary keeping peperment tea on hand also it would have seemed odd for him to wandering around orthanc with a mug of tea. so if that was all that he had.... well even though I hate wine I GUESS I might drink it if I was really thersty

01-11-2002, 01:03 AM	#5
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	ChildofEru: I knew it to be horse manure, instead of cow manure, because of the shape of the "ploppings". Okay, it's rather a disgustingly embarassing thing to be an "expert" on the droppings of animals, but in my MUCH younger years, in a phase I thankfully outgrew, in our search for psilocybe cubensis, incredibly psychoactive mushrooms, my friends and I became quite talented in spotting cow pats, from which only the treasured fungus sprouted. That's how I can tell "horse doo" from "cow doo". Also, I think Jackson put that stuff there to show that the Ringwraiths had been patrolling the Road. And no, Arathorn, that ain't broccoli, unless it was horse-processed first! [Did I welcome you to the Moot yet? If not, a hearty welcome to you!] __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-15-2002, 01:26 PM	#11
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	I've seen the film twice, so far, and the second time, it seemed to me that the ring shrunk (shrank?) in Isildur's hand, as he was turning it around in his fingers. Did anyone else see this? Also, Atisha, I agree completely on C. Lee's and B. Boyd's voices. I laughed my face off at the Council when Pippin looked up innocently and asked "Where are we goin'?" The brogue definitely added a lot to the humor of the moment. __________________ FRODO LIVES!! (sung to the tune of "My Boyfriend's Back") Now, Gandalf's back, and you're gonna be in trouble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back) Soon, Barad-dur is gonna be a pile of rubble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back)

01-15-2002, 03:02 PM	#12
Vardasoroniel Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: misty oregon Posts: 95	[QUOTE]Originally posted by ragamuffin92 [B]I've seen the film twice, so far, and the second time, it seemed to me that the ring shrunk (shrank?) in Isildur's hand, as he was turning it around in his fingers. Did anyone else see this? yes, the ring did accomodate itself to isildur's hand - as i think it would to any of it's captives fingers. it also grows larger and slips off those fingers when it needs to move on in its attempts to return to sauron (such as when gollum 'loses' it and bilbo 'finds' it). i've seen the movie twice, also. the first time just to catch the flow of pj's retelling of the story; the second to look closely at the scenery, architecture, & costuming. i'll most likely see it many more times to capture every last bit out of it. next time i'll look closely at the clasp to boromir's cloak - i think that may truly have been a symbolic gesture put in by pj.

01-15-2002, 03:15 PM	#13
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	Thanks, Vardasoroniel As they say in Brooklyn, you've got a pernt, there. __________________ FRODO LIVES!! (sung to the tune of "My Boyfriend's Back") Now, Gandalf's back, and you're gonna be in trouble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back) Soon, Barad-dur is gonna be a pile of rubble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back)

01-15-2002, 04:41 PM	#14
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Welcome to the Moot, Vardasoroniel! A quick note: I was mistaken about Boromir's clasp. Actually, the clasp whcih came undone was the clasp of his original cloak, beneath that which was given him by Galadriel. My mistake. Who knows, maybe we could say his OWN resolve was breaking, and that was why the clasp was undone, but that the Lorien cloak staying fastened meant his loyalty to the Fellowship would override his personal loyalty to his city and people, but that is probably stretching it, and not just a bit. Also, the ring DID shrink [I ain't wording it so I have to battle between "shrank" and "shrunk"!] in Isildur's glove. And I agree about the pronunciations. They were perfect, and Christopher Lee's "Morrrdorrr" gave me chills too! __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-15-2002, 04:51 PM	#15
Vardasoroniel Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: misty oregon Posts: 95	no problem here in stretching the symbolism of the clasps! i'm the sort of person who likes to explore seemingly innocuous happenings & trying to tie them into some larger whole. unfortunately the tie-ins don't always mesh seamlessly, but it's fun, nonetheless, to follow the twists and turns of tortuous reasoning!! i was surprised at first, when i heard saruman and gandalf roll the 'r's for mordor - and at first i thought it was just a sinister affect - but when i went back and checked the tengwa letters, it is indeed supposed to be trilled. the elven language advisors for the movie did a good job in promoting the correct pronunciation. __________________ Ai na vedui . . . Mae govannen! Last edited by Vardasoroniel : 01-15-2002 at 04:57 PM.

01-15-2002, 10:07 PM	#16
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	Yup! I also liked the way the wizards said morrrdorr. But I'm also quite impressed with the way Elrond pronounced Isildur when he was having a flashback about the last great battle..ahhh..the accented 2nd "i"... __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures...

01-15-2002, 11:39 PM	#17
luinilwen Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Sydney AUSTRALIA Posts: 368	you can tell some elvish (or linguistic) specialists had a hand in it. (eg. the h being pronounced as ich-laut (sounds like you're about to spit) not breath h, the trilled r etc.) but they really had to have that detail, as the language had already been established by tolkien, and the fans who are fluent in elvish really would have had their knickers in a twist had it been inaccurate. i think all the armour and weaponry was hand made too... can anyone confirm that?

01-16-2002, 06:05 AM	#18
Atisha Sapling Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bad Lippspringe, Germany Posts: 10	As far as I know, you're right about the handmade weaponry, luinilwen. It's really amazing how they worked out even the tiniest details... As for the elvish language being used in the movie, it sounded great in the original version. With the german speakers, much of its magic and beauty got lost; it just sounded too pathetic, too forced. __________________ I'm not Irish; kiss me, anyway!

01-16-2002, 11:36 AM	#19
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	It's idiotic to even try to change spoken language of any movie. Text is always a better solution, but for some reason, americans, french and german always translate the spoken language. I can't understand why. Can't those people read, or what (no offense meant)?

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