Istari restrictions

afro-elf · 01-09-2002, 12:33 AM

If the Istari were prohibited against going head to head with Sauron what about when Gandalf entered Dol Guldur and then when the White Council drove him out.

Would Gandalf's two trips be :
1) The 1st time none were aware it was Sauron.
2) The second time used enough power to escape.

But, what about when the White Council drove him out.

Was that not power for power?

Kevin McIntyre · 01-09-2002, 01:19 AM

The white council consisted of more than just Gandalf, it consisted of the wizards (Saruman and Radghast - the blue wizards maybe), as well as the leading Eldarian powers (Galadriel, Elrond , Cirdain and others). This is considerable strenght. Of course Sauron flight was only fiegned however. Since he long planned to return to Mordor.

Ñólendil · 01-09-2002, 03:32 AM

The Blue Wizards were in the far East and had a different task to do.

Lightice · 01-09-2002, 12:50 PM

And they had lost from knowledge of others anyway...

Comic Book Guy · 01-09-2002, 04:29 PM

Quote:

And they had lost from knowledge of others anyway...

I assume you mean that they no one knew that they were around at the War of the Ring, The Istari and the White Council knew plus the people in the lands east of Mordor must have been aware of them.

Kirinki54 · 01-09-2002, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kevin McIntyre
The white council consisted of more than just Gandalf, it consisted of the wizards (Saruman and Radghast - the blue wizards maybe), as well as the leading Eldarian powers (Galadriel, Elrond , Cirdain and others). This is considerable strenght. Of course Sauron flight was only fiegned however. Since he long planned to return to Mordor.

Is it not said somewhere that Sauron was chased away much because of the devices of Saurman?

Comic Book Guy · 01-09-2002, 07:31 PM

Quote:

But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him. It was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur. It might be that he had found some weapons that would drive back the Nine.

Kevin McIntyre · 01-09-2002, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirinki54

Is it not said somewhere that Sauron was chased away much because of the devices of Saurman?

It does state somewhere (?) that the white council did indeed require Saruman's powers to cause Sauron to leave Dol Guldur. However it also is made clear that 1) Saruman only did this to prevent Sauron from searching the Anduin for the ring and 2) Sauron had already made plans to remove himself to Mordor and take up residence in the rebuilt Barad-Dur

Gandalf The Grey · 01-09-2002, 08:23 PM

it was real smart of Saruman to drive Sauron from Dul Gudur.

Marcus · 01-13-2002, 04:39 AM

what was the job of the blue wizards of the east

Lightice · 01-13-2002, 06:55 AM

To make eastern people enemies of Sauron also, as they had been his servants for long. They were never hear of again...

afro-elf · 01-13-2002, 11:48 AM

Tolkien's early idea was that the Blue Wizards abandoned their mission and started up magic cults that outlasted the fall of Sauron, later Tolkien decided that they would become 'Darkness Slayer' and 'East helper' and they stayed faithful to their Mission. The best information on the Blue Istari is the the essay on the Istari in Unfinished tales.

You'll find the info. about Alatar and Pallando as Blue Wizards in Unfinished Tales, Of the Istari. The Blue Wizards as Morinehtar and Romenstámo (or Rome(n)star) can be found in The Peoples of Middle-earth; Late Writings, Last Writings, the Blue Wizards. I have assumed that Alatar corresponds to Morinehtar and Pallando to Romenstámo since they end in the same elements, but that's just a foolish guess and all the more unlikely since the form 'Rome(n)star' was also given. I don't think it matters much, so little is known about either.
The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age [note 26]. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador [note 27]. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romenstamo [note 28]. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding place (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.

***Earniel*** · 01-14-2002, 04:37 PM

I'm a bit confused here, Afro-elf. Are you saying that Glorfindel was a wizard? I always believed him to be an elf...

afro-elf · 01-14-2002, 04:53 PM

NO no no.

It was just saying that Glorfondel arrived with the blue wizards. He is definately an Elf.

***Earniel*** · 01-14-2002, 06:12 PM

Oh now i get it, thank you! Where did you find that?

afro-elf · 01-14-2002, 06:42 PM

It was from an older post concerning the Blue Wizards. I got from a reply from Inoldonil. He can tell you exactly where it's from.

ragamuffin92 · 01-14-2002, 06:46 PM

It states somehwhere in "Unfinished Tales" that Gandalf was the only one of the Istari to return (to the Blessed Realm), meaning that the other four failed to remain true to the calling. Saruman, as we all know, was corrupted, Radagast more than likely got so caught up with his wildlife buddies that he totally forgot why he was sent by the Valar, and the two Blue Wizards diappeared into the east, never to be heard from again. (Prof T himself wrote that he didn't know what happened to the Blue Wizards, but feared that they were ensared into serving Sauron, and/or he suspected that "they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' tradtions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.") So, in the end, Gandalf turneed out to be the only successful wizard. Ironic, because in one scenario, when the Valar asked him to leave the Blessed Realm to BECOME a wizard, he didn't want to do it, because he was TOO WEAK, and FEARED SAURON!!!. But he obeyed the command of Manwe, and went anyway. In fact, Manwe said that was just the reason he SHOULD go. I guess he had his doubts about Saurman and his pride. (Unfinished Tales, p 393, Houghton-Mifflin)

ragamuffin92 · 01-14-2002, 07:00 PM

See FOtR, in the chapter "The Council of Elrond." (Houghton-Mifflin pp 263-4). Gandalf states that Saruman delayed the Council's confrontation with Sauron, who then "gave way before us, but only feigned to flee." He scurried back to Mordor and openly declared himself.

afro-elf · 01-14-2002, 07:04 PM

However, as stated above the prof did decide LATER that the blue wizards did not fail.

I guess you can take whatever version you want.

***Earniel*** · 01-14-2002, 07:32 PM

Ok, call me stupid but what does FOtR means, I came across it several times here

01-09-2002, 12:33 AM	#1
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Istari restrictions If the Istari were prohibited against going head to head with Sauron what about when Gandalf entered Dol Guldur and then when the White Council drove him out. Would Gandalf's two trips be : 1) The 1st time none were aware it was Sauron. 2) The second time used enough power to escape. But, what about when the White Council drove him out. Was that not power for power? __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-09-2002, 03:32 AM	#3
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	The Blue Wizards were in the far East and had a different task to do. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-09-2002, 08:23 PM	#9
Gandalf The Grey Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20	Saruman it was real smart of Saruman to drive Sauron from Dul Gudur.

01-13-2002, 11:48 AM	#12
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	Tolkien's early idea was that the Blue Wizards abandoned their mission and started up magic cults that outlasted the fall of Sauron, later Tolkien decided that they would become 'Darkness Slayer' and 'East helper' and they stayed faithful to their Mission. The best information on the Blue Istari is the the essay on the Istari in Unfinished tales. You'll find the info. about Alatar and Pallando as Blue Wizards in Unfinished Tales, Of the Istari. The Blue Wizards as Morinehtar and Romenstámo (or Rome(n)star) can be found in The Peoples of Middle-earth; Late Writings, Last Writings, the Blue Wizards. I have assumed that Alatar corresponds to Morinehtar and Pallando to Romenstámo since they end in the same elements, but that's just a foolish guess and all the more unlikely since the form 'Rome(n)star' was also given. I don't think it matters much, so little is known about either. The 'other two' came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age [note 26]. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador [note 27]. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Romenstamo [note 28]. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion ... and after his first fall to search out his hiding place (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East ... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-14-2002, 04:53 PM	#14
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	NO no no. It was just saying that Glorfondel arrived with the blue wizards. He is definately an Elf. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-09-2002, 01:19 AM	#2
Kevin McIntyre Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bree Posts: 148	The white council consisted of more than just Gandalf, it consisted of the wizards (Saruman and Radghast - the blue wizards maybe), as well as the leading Eldarian powers (Galadriel, Elrond , Cirdain and others). This is considerable strenght. Of course Sauron flight was only fiegned however. Since he long planned to return to Mordor.

01-09-2002, 12:50 PM	#4
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	And they had lost from knowledge of others anyway...

01-13-2002, 04:39 AM	#10
Marcus Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 18	what was the job of the blue wizards of the east

01-13-2002, 06:55 AM	#11
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	To make eastern people enemies of Sauron also, as they had been his servants for long. They were never hear of again...

01-14-2002, 04:37 PM	#13
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	I'm a bit confused here, Afro-elf. Are you saying that Glorfindel was a wizard? I always believed him to be an elf...

01-14-2002, 06:12 PM	#15
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Oh now i get it, thank you! Where did you find that?

01-14-2002, 06:42 PM	#16
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	It was from an older post concerning the Blue Wizards. I got from a reply from Inoldonil. He can tell you exactly where it's from. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

01-14-2002, 06:46 PM	#17
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	It states somehwhere in "Unfinished Tales" that Gandalf was the only one of the Istari to return (to the Blessed Realm), meaning that the other four failed to remain true to the calling. Saruman, as we all know, was corrupted, Radagast more than likely got so caught up with his wildlife buddies that he totally forgot why he was sent by the Valar, and the two Blue Wizards diappeared into the east, never to be heard from again. (Prof T himself wrote that he didn't know what happened to the Blue Wizards, but feared that they were ensared into serving Sauron, and/or he suspected that "they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' tradtions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.") So, in the end, Gandalf turneed out to be the only successful wizard. Ironic, because in one scenario, when the Valar asked him to leave the Blessed Realm to BECOME a wizard, he didn't want to do it, because he was TOO WEAK, and FEARED SAURON!!!. But he obeyed the command of Manwe, and went anyway. In fact, Manwe said that was just the reason he SHOULD go. I guess he had his doubts about Saurman and his pride. (Unfinished Tales, p 393, Houghton-Mifflin) __________________ FRODO LIVES!! (sung to the tune of "My Boyfriend's Back") Now, Gandalf's back, and you're gonna be in trouble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back) Soon, Barad-dur is gonna be a pile of rubble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back)

01-14-2002, 07:00 PM	#18
ragamuffin92 Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New York State Posts: 309	Saruman did NOT chase Sauron See FOtR, in the chapter "The Council of Elrond." (Houghton-Mifflin pp 263-4). Gandalf states that Saruman delayed the Council's confrontation with Sauron, who then "gave way before us, but only feigned to flee." He scurried back to Mordor and openly declared himself. __________________ FRODO LIVES!! (sung to the tune of "My Boyfriend's Back") Now, Gandalf's back, and you're gonna be in trouble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back) Soon, Barad-dur is gonna be a pile of rubble (Hey-la, hey-la---Now, Gandalf's back)

01-14-2002, 07:04 PM	#19
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	However, as stated above the prof did decide LATER that the blue wizards did not fail. I guess you can take whatever version you want. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 01-14-2002 at 07:06 PM.

01-14-2002, 07:32 PM	#20
*Earniel* The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium) Posts: 14,363	Ok, call me stupid but what does FOtR means, I came across it several times here

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