The Valar

***Fat middle*** · 01-04-2002, 12:19 PM

I cannot remember a single word in the movie about them. Am I wrong?

Perhaps that's one of the necessary cuts to make the screenplay so clear (one of the best points of the movie IMHO), but i think that if Valar are excluded also in TT and ROTK some important things would be altered: the background for the old good/evil story: would Sauron, the evil creature, be the most powerful?

It would also alter the returning of Gandalf: will they make him survive to the falling? there's no other way to have him back if there are no Valar to send him back.

Pailan · 01-04-2002, 12:24 PM

I agree, I don't remember any mention of the Valar, if anywhere it should've been in the first eight minutes. I bet we will here of the Valar in the last movie, otherwise the Grey Havens scene won't make much sense.

***Fat middle*** · 01-04-2002, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pailan
I bet we will here of the Valar in the last movie, otherwise the Grey Havens scene won't make much sense.

Yep. But only in case that The Grey Havens scene is finally included in ROTK, which i'm not sure.

Pailan · 01-04-2002, 03:39 PM

I have read on line (where I'm not sure) but the actors said that shooting the scenes at the Grey Havens was perhaps THE most emmotional time in the whole of the three movies. Yes, we will have to wait and see <sighs heavily> until Christmas 2003 to know for sure. But how much of Tolkien,s world can they really fit into this effort? Valinor and the Valar will bear at least a mention I think.

Darth Tater · 01-04-2002, 04:07 PM

Considering I wasn't actually aware of the Valar's existance till I read the Silmarillian (I don't remember if they're mentioned in LOTR or not, but if they are it's in a way that didn't grab my attention), so I really don't think they're needed in the films.

fedos · 01-04-2002, 04:15 PM

I don't remember the Valar beeing mentioned in the trilogy, either. I knew about them before starting to read the Silmarillion only because I had read the Tolkien Bestiary and an encylcopedia of ME first.

However, I just read something that may indicate an error later on. My father gave me the LOTR desk calender for X-mas and, as is my habit, I was glancing through the pages ahead and saw this trivia question: "What is the Elvish name for the Grey Havens?" Their answer: Valinor.

Lightice · 01-04-2002, 05:37 PM

There was one mention about Valar in trilogy: At Ithilien, when Mumak of Harad attacks Faramirs troups.

***Fat middle*** · 01-04-2002, 06:25 PM

perhaps there are not many mentions (although Elbereth appears several times

) but the Valar are capital to understand Gandalf the White.

if you hadn't hear about Valar before reading LOTR, i'm sure at least you felt there were some Good Powers that sent Gandalf back to Middle Earth. That's quite clear in the book IMHO.

bropous · 01-05-2002, 01:30 AM

I have to agree with Fedos and Darth here. I don't recall any real mention of the Valar in the trilogy, aside from Elbereth.

As for the Valar in the movie, to me it is intimated, but not overt. Recall Gandalf saying that Bilbo was meant to find the One Ring, and that Frodo was meant to carry it, and that it was a comforting thought, or words to that effect. I think that points to a higher power, be it the Valar or God or Big Juju or whatever.

I was not really made aware of the existence of the Valar until I read the Silmarillion. Was anyone else unaware of them until reading that tome as well?

CaranIstar · 01-05-2002, 09:54 AM

I was muzzily aware that there was some land of great power and so on far to the west when I read the Book, but the first time I actually heard of the Valar was in the Silmarillion

markedel · 02-13-2002, 10:36 PM

The Valar are never explained. Mentioned three times as I recall (and one of those indirectly) There is the Valar stop the oliphant. The King's relam lasting as long as the thrones of the Valar endure, and a mention of heathen king's when Denethor is about to burn (i.e do not acknowledge Eru and the Valar) That's ot. LOTR is religion free as "godliness" as it were is incarnate. Therefore religion is not that necessary, at least that's how I understand it.

FrodoFriend · 02-13-2002, 10:54 PM

There wasn't any explanation of the Valar in LotR. I remember when I first started posting here I hadn't read the Silmarillion yet, and people kept saying "Maiar" and "Valar" and had me utterly confused.

I think the movie works fine w/o Valar. Then you just have a wonderful mysterious land in the West. Maybe it'll get more people interested in reading the Sil!

Captain Stern · 02-14-2002, 09:33 AM

In the movie, remember when Saruman told Lurtz about how the Orcs were created? It was something along the lines of: "The Orcs used to be Elves, corrupted and twisted by the Dark Powers" So in the movie, any mention of Morgoth is excluded, to make it more clear and simple for the target audience.
So it's doubtful that The Valar will ever be mentioned. However I wouldn't be surprised in the least, if the Valar are mentioned at the Grey Havens scene, while still, there never being any mention of Morgoth. It would be testament to Peter Jackson's lack of skill and understanding in adapting a book to the big screen.

bropous · 02-14-2002, 11:50 AM

Captain Stern, I am not really sure on this. Was Morgoth ever actually named in LotR? I thought it was fine that the film mentioned "the Dark Powers" for that intimates that Sauron was not the only Dark One the free peoples had dealt with.

LuthienTinuviel · 02-14-2002, 04:12 PM

i agree with bropous.
power is singular, powers is plural, plural means more than one.
at least that is how i see it.

coolismo · 02-14-2002, 04:23 PM

i thought that the 'dark powers' referred to dark arts ie some sort of black magic used to twist and mutillate the elves into orcs rather than meaning a bunch of different baddies. I never read it as capital P powers.

markedel · 02-14-2002, 08:25 PM

In the book Morgoth is mentioned as the great enemy though where exactly I am not sure.

Captain Stern · 02-15-2002, 07:07 AM

He's mentioned more than once.

Gandalf tells Frodo about Morgoth on one occasion, it was something like this: "Oh no, there are beings greater than Sauron in this world, there was Morgoth, the first Dark Lord, of whom Sauron was but the servant."

I'd have a hard time finding the exact quote, but I'm sure at least some of you remember what I'm refering to.

Arathorn · 02-15-2002, 11:02 AM

Found a passage on FOTR:

When they were talking to Celeborn in Lothlorien...

'It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.' 'It was a Balorg of Morgoth,' said Legolas;`of all elf-bones the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.'

bropous · 02-15-2002, 12:32 PM

Ah. Good call, Captain Stern.

01-04-2002, 12:19 PM	#1
*Fat middle* Mootis per forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Spain Posts: 61,439	The Valar I cannot remember a single word in the movie about them. Am I wrong? Perhaps that's one of the necessary cuts to make the screenplay so clear (one of the best points of the movie IMHO), but i think that if Valar are excluded also in TT and ROTK some important things would be altered: the background for the old good/evil story: would Sauron, the evil creature, be the most powerful? It would also alter the returning of Gandalf: will they make him survive to the falling? there's no other way to have him back if there are no Valar to send him back. __________________ Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.

01-04-2002, 12:24 PM	#2
Pailan Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: aisle 12, seat#2 Posts: 449	I agree, I don't remember any mention of the Valar, if anywhere it should've been in the first eight minutes. I bet we will here of the Valar in the last movie, otherwise the Grey Havens scene won't make much sense. __________________ "Holy Entmoot, Batman!" "Who knows, Robin? This strange mixing of minds may be the greatest single sevice ever performed for humanity! Let's go, but, inconspicuosly, through the window. We'll use our Batropes. Our job is finished." Oh, btw, Frodo lives. Last edited by Pailan : 01-04-2002 at 12:25 PM.

01-04-2002, 03:39 PM	#4
Pailan Elven Warrior Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: aisle 12, seat#2 Posts: 449	I have read on line (where I'm not sure) but the actors said that shooting the scenes at the Grey Havens was perhaps THE most emmotional time in the whole of the three movies. Yes, we will have to wait and see <sighs heavily> until Christmas 2003 to know for sure. But how much of Tolkien,s world can they really fit into this effort? Valinor and the Valar will bear at least a mention I think. __________________ "Holy Entmoot, Batman!" "Who knows, Robin? This strange mixing of minds may be the greatest single sevice ever performed for humanity! Let's go, but, inconspicuosly, through the window. We'll use our Batropes. Our job is finished." Oh, btw, Frodo lives.

01-04-2002, 04:07 PM	#5
Darth Tater The man Join Date: Sep 1999 Location: MA Posts: 4,572	Considering I wasn't actually aware of the Valar's existance till I read the Silmarillian (I don't remember if they're mentioned in LOTR or not, but if they are it's in a way that didn't grab my attention), so I really don't think they're needed in the films. __________________ Visit the worlds greatest webpage! No, not The Tolkien Trail! Just click this! The Tolkien Trail ~Camelot

01-04-2002, 04:15 PM	#6
fedos Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 25	I don't remember the Valar beeing mentioned in the trilogy, either. I knew about them before starting to read the Silmarillion only because I had read the Tolkien Bestiary and an encylcopedia of ME first. However, I just read something that may indicate an error later on. My father gave me the LOTR desk calender for X-mas and, as is my habit, I was glancing through the pages ahead and saw this trivia question: "What is the Elvish name for the Grey Havens?" Their answer: Valinor. __________________ But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery.

01-04-2002, 05:37 PM	#7
Lightice Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2001 Posts: 192	There was one mention about Valar in trilogy: At Ithilien, when Mumak of Harad attacks Faramirs troups.

01-04-2002, 06:25 PM	#8
*Fat middle* Mootis per forum Administrator Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Spain Posts: 61,439	perhaps there are not many mentions (although Elbereth appears several times ) but the Valar are capital to understand Gandalf the White. if you hadn't hear about Valar before reading LOTR, i'm sure at least you felt there were some Good Powers that sent Gandalf back to Middle Earth. That's quite clear in the book IMHO. __________________ Do not be hasty. That is my motto. Now we'll have a drink and go to the Entmoot.

01-05-2002, 01:30 AM	#9
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	I have to agree with Fedos and Darth here. I don't recall any real mention of the Valar in the trilogy, aside from Elbereth. As for the Valar in the movie, to me it is intimated, but not overt. Recall Gandalf saying that Bilbo was meant to find the One Ring, and that Frodo was meant to carry it, and that it was a comforting thought, or words to that effect. I think that points to a higher power, be it the Valar or God or Big Juju or whatever. I was not really made aware of the existence of the Valar until I read the Silmarillion. Was anyone else unaware of them until reading that tome as well? __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-05-2002, 09:54 AM	#10
CaranIstar Hobbit Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 32	I was muzzily aware that there was some land of great power and so on far to the west when I read the Book, but the first time I actually heard of the Valar was in the Silmarillion

02-13-2002, 10:36 PM	#11
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	The Valar are never explained. Mentioned three times as I recall (and one of those indirectly) There is the Valar stop the oliphant. The King's relam lasting as long as the thrones of the Valar endure, and a mention of heathen king's when Denethor is about to burn (i.e do not acknowledge Eru and the Valar) That's ot. LOTR is religion free as "godliness" as it were is incarnate. Therefore religion is not that necessary, at least that's how I understand it. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-13-2002, 10:54 PM	#12
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	There wasn't any explanation of the Valar in LotR. I remember when I first started posting here I hadn't read the Silmarillion yet, and people kept saying "Maiar" and "Valar" and had me utterly confused. I think the movie works fine w/o Valar. Then you just have a wonderful mysterious land in the West. Maybe it'll get more people interested in reading the Sil! __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

02-14-2002, 09:33 AM	#13
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	RE:The Valar In the movie, remember when Saruman told Lurtz about how the Orcs were created? It was something along the lines of: "The Orcs used to be Elves, corrupted and twisted by the Dark Powers" So in the movie, any mention of Morgoth is excluded, to make it more clear and simple for the target audience. So it's doubtful that The Valar will ever be mentioned. However I wouldn't be surprised in the least, if the Valar are mentioned at the Grey Havens scene, while still, there never being any mention of Morgoth. It would be testament to Peter Jackson's lack of skill and understanding in adapting a book to the big screen. __________________ Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä.

02-14-2002, 11:50 AM	#14
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Captain Stern, I am not really sure on this. Was Morgoth ever actually named in LotR? I thought it was fine that the film mentioned "the Dark Powers" for that intimates that Sauron was not the only Dark One the free peoples had dealt with. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-14-2002, 04:12 PM	#15
LuthienTinuviel protector of orphaned rabbits Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Kalamazoo... yes, its a real place! Posts: 1,236	happy valentinies day i agree with bropous. power is singular, powers is plural, plural means more than one. at least that is how i see it. __________________

02-14-2002, 04:23 PM	#16
coolismo Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: south england Posts: 93	i thought that the 'dark powers' referred to dark arts ie some sort of black magic used to twist and mutillate the elves into orcs rather than meaning a bunch of different baddies. I never read it as capital P powers.

02-14-2002, 08:25 PM	#17
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	In the book Morgoth is mentioned as the great enemy though where exactly I am not sure. __________________ "Earnur was a man like his father in valour, but not in wisdom"

02-15-2002, 07:07 AM	#18
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	RE: The Valar He's mentioned more than once. Gandalf tells Frodo about Morgoth on one occasion, it was something like this: "Oh no, there are beings greater than Sauron in this world, there was Morgoth, the first Dark Lord, of whom Sauron was but the servant." I'd have a hard time finding the exact quote, but I'm sure at least some of you remember what I'm refering to. __________________ Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä.

02-15-2002, 11:02 AM	#19
Arathorn Bard of Mangled Songs Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: West of Middle Earth...oh alright...Manila Posts: 2,679	Found a passage on FOTR: When they were talking to Celeborn in Lothlorien... 'It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.' 'It was a Balorg of Morgoth,' said Legolas;`of all elf-bones the most deadly, save the One who sits in the Dark Tower.' __________________ Power attracts the corruptible. Absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. -Missionaria Protectiva, Frank Herbert *Accio, Ash Nazg!* Elennuru s?la lúmenn' omentielvo* (The Death Star shines on the hour of our meeting) - Darth Arathorn Put aside the ranger... Start looking for Mumakil action figures... Last edited by Arathorn : 02-15-2002 at 11:15 AM.

02-15-2002, 12:32 PM	#20
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Ah. Good call, Captain Stern. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

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