The Silmarillion

Legolas6000 · 01-02-2002, 04:56 PM

I was wondering if The Silmarillion is based on one tale or more than one? And how does it differ from the Book of Lost Tales? Thanks!

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-02-2002, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Legolas6000
I was wondering if The Silmarillion is based on one tale or more than one? And how does it differ from the Book of Lost Tales? Thanks!

The Silmarillion is a history of the creation of the world, the Valar, the Children of Iluvatar, and the Exile of the Noldor from Valinor. Inner-twined in these accounts is the comming of Men, the story of Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, Morwen and Hurin, Turin and others. Unfinished tales is an elaboration on the stories in the Silmarillion.

OOPS! I see now that you said the Book of Lost Tales. I believe that the BoLT is part of the very early mythology. Sorry.

bropous · 01-13-2002, 09:59 PM

However, Tolkien spoke of "The Silmarillion" as far back as 1938.

William Wallace · 01-20-2002, 01:17 AM

Silmarillion is really hard to get through...

Lightice · 01-20-2002, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by William Wallace
Silmarillion is really hard to get through...

No it isn't.
I've read it thrice, all times in less than a week. It depends on person.

bropous · 01-20-2002, 01:04 PM

Welcome to the Moot, William Wallace!

I didn't find Silmarillion hard to get through, but I think it just depends upon the person. Now, I didn't absorb it all in one week, and took my time reading it, but I just relaxed and enjoyed the tale, referring endlessly to the glossary and genealogical charts in the back to keep track of who was who, why Finarfin and Fingolfin were so different, so on and so forth.

There are a lot of unfamiliar names in the Silmarillion, and for me, it's sort of like reading chinese history: It's hard to keep track of the personalities behind unfamiliar names. Keep cracking at it, and remember that folks who've been through Lord of the Rings 20+ times STILL find new details each time through. You don't have to pick up every nuance of the First Age your first time through the silmarillion. Just enjoy it, and realize that when you read it again you'll get a whole new picture.

Renille · 01-20-2002, 11:18 PM

It's hard to get through when you take it out from the library, never have a minute to read it, and then 2 months later check it out, forget where you left off, and have to start over. That's happened to me so many times it's not funny. At last, I finished it!I am looking forward to the second time around; after the Unfinished Tales. (This time, though, I'm buying it for five dollars from Wal-Mart. Why didn't I think of that before????)

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 01-20-2002, 11:29 PM

I just bought a new paperback of the Sil. It was 6 bucks at Borders, Books, and Music.

FrodoFriend · 01-20-2002, 11:46 PM

No way! I paid $14 at Barnes & Noble!

Michael Martinez · 01-21-2002, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Legolas6000
I was wondering if The Silmarillion is based on one tale or more than one? And how does it differ from the Book of Lost Tales? Thanks!

The characters are different, the geography is different, and many of the plots are different. Some of the stories in The Book of Lost Tales have no equivalent in The Silmarillion. Some of the stories in The Silmarillion have no equivalent in The Book of Lost Tales.

The writing style is also very different. Whereas The Silmarillion is very formal, The Book of Lost Tales emulates archaic styles (or invents them).

The Book of Lost Tales represents J.R.R. Tolkien's attempt to create a lost Anglo-Saxon mythology. The Silmarillion is simply a mythology which replaced earlier mythologies.

Tolkien reused the same basic themes (a group of Elves rebel against powerful beings and return to mortal lands to wage a long and hopeless war with a dark lord). The Book of Lost Tales is darker and more depressing than The Silmarillion, which ends on a happier note.

markedel · 01-25-2002, 10:13 AM

The Silmarillion ends on happy note?????

Ñólendil · 01-25-2002, 04:34 PM

Happier note, he said. He probably meant the whole Silmarillion and not just the 'Silmarillion proper'.

Nameless · 01-26-2002, 12:46 AM

I think bropous sums the Silmirillion up well: "it's sort of like reading chinese history"

The first time I tackled the Silmirillion was straight after I first read LotR. Boy was I dissapointed!! I was expecting writing in the same style as LotR and found that I couldn't follow it at all.

But after putting it away for 2 years, I read it again recently. This time I knew the writing style was different and I approached it accordingly!

Wow!! The Silmarillion is fantastic! Every chapter was so interesting and left me wanting more.

Now, I'm a fast reader, but I really had to take my time with this book. Everyone seems to change their name as often as they change underwear! (a pen and paper helps, as does referring to the index).

I'm now reading LotR for the umptenth time. After the Sil, everything has more depth, and I find myself exclaiming outload "So that's why......"

If you want to enhance your LotR reading experience, read the Silmarillion!!

olsonm · 01-26-2002, 01:35 AM

Maybe it's just me but I liked the, 'Of Beleriand and Its Realms' and 'Of the Noldor in Beleriand', chapters.

bropous · 01-27-2002, 12:15 PM

Well, it's not just you, olsonm. I liked the Belerian and Noldor chapters as well, just as I enjoyed all of the chapters in the book.

Curufinwe · 02-08-2002, 04:54 PM

The Book of lost tales is, if you will, the first draft, or germ from which the silmarillion sprung. It is much more "primitive" (Melko is banished from the world when he climbes a tall pine tree that is then cut down) than the later silmarillion and is an end to itself - there are no second and third ages. The silmarillion is Tolkein's lifelong work which he never completed, and the published version comes mostly from his writtings in the late 50s. Some of the stories had not been touched for decades when Christopher began the great undertaking of editing and putting together the text. The fall of Doriath, for instance, had not been touched since before LOTR, so you can imagine he may have touched it up if he intended to put the thing in publishable form. It is a collection of tales, from the beginnings of middle earth through the sailing of the "last ship" from Mithlond and the beginning of the dominion of men (i.e. the end of TLOR).

Varda-Me · 02-10-2002, 12:42 AM

I also tried tackling it after reading LOTR and found it disappointing. I was much younger then. Now, after many years, I'm trying it again - with very different results. I would suggest reading it with a companion guide - you get so much more out of it. The glossary in the back is okay, but not great. I find myself very confused about the geography - I have a small paperback and the writing on the map is so tiny I can't read it - the type all blurs together. Still, it's very moving. The part of the Kinslaying really got to me - talk about treachery.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 02-10-2002, 01:46 PM

As for useing a reference guide to help you along, I would say it is fine to do that, but I would be careful if it is the first time you have read it. A guide can also be a SPOILER

Evenstar · 02-16-2002, 10:05 PM

After reading this thread once I went out and bought the book!!! Now I just gotta start it!!!

Varda-Me · 02-18-2002, 12:08 AM

Yes, The Silmarillion is difficult at first. However, once you get into the rhythm of the language and text, it becomes easy - or, rather, less arduous. It reads like the old Testament, or ancient mythology. I'm reading it for the first time myself - I've just passed the part about Turin and Nienor. I guess my only complaint (which is really too harsh a word) is that there are so many characters that it is hard to keep them straight and to establish any kind of empathy with them. But, I still loved it (or am loving it, since I've not quite finished reading it). Keep on reading - it's worth it!

01-02-2002, 04:56 PM	#1
Legolas6000 Sapling Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 2	The Silmarillion I was wondering if The Silmarillion is based on one tale or more than one? And how does it differ from the Book of Lost Tales? Thanks!

01-13-2002, 09:59 PM	#3
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	However, Tolkien spoke of "The Silmarillion" as far back as 1938. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-20-2002, 01:17 AM	#4
William Wallace Hobbit Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 18	Silmarillion is really hard to get through... __________________ Everyone dies, but not everyone truly lives...

01-20-2002, 01:04 PM	#6
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Welcome to the Moot, William Wallace! I didn't find Silmarillion hard to get through, but I think it just depends upon the person. Now, I didn't absorb it all in one week, and took my time reading it, but I just relaxed and enjoyed the tale, referring endlessly to the glossary and genealogical charts in the back to keep track of who was who, why Finarfin and Fingolfin were so different, so on and so forth. There are a lot of unfamiliar names in the Silmarillion, and for me, it's sort of like reading chinese history: It's hard to keep track of the personalities behind unfamiliar names. Keep cracking at it, and remember that folks who've been through Lord of the Rings 20+ times STILL find new details each time through. You don't have to pick up every nuance of the First Age your first time through the silmarillion. Just enjoy it, and realize that when you read it again you'll get a whole new picture. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

01-20-2002, 11:18 PM	#7
Renille Elven Lady of Speed-posting Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the cheese state Posts: 988	It's hard to get through when you take it out from the library, never have a minute to read it, and then 2 months later check it out, forget where you left off, and have to start over. That's happened to me so many times it's not funny. At last, I finished it!I am looking forward to the second time around; after the Unfinished Tales. (This time, though, I'm buying it for five dollars from Wal-Mart. Why didn't I think of that before????) __________________ Oh the thinks you can think! Think and wonder and dream...far and wide as you dare! When your thinks have run dry, in the blink of an eye, there's another world there... (from Seussical the Musical. Listen to it...watch it...really.)

01-20-2002, 11:29 PM	#8
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	I just bought a new paperback of the Sil. It was 6 bucks at Borders, Books, and Music.

01-20-2002, 11:46 PM	#9
FrodoFriend Halfwitted Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Eryn Vorn Posts: 1,659	No way! I paid $14 at Barnes & Noble! __________________ Fingolfin lives! ... in my finger! The Crossroads of Arda - Warning. Halfwit content. Not appropriate for people with IQ of over 18. The Fellowship of the Message Board Nyáréonié - The Tale of Tears

01-25-2002, 10:13 AM	#11
markedel 'Sober' Mullet Frosh Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Queen's Posts: 1,245	The Silmarillion ends on happy note?????

01-25-2002, 04:34 PM	#12
Ñólendil Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: California Posts: 60,865	Happier note, he said. He probably meant the whole Silmarillion and not just the 'Silmarillion proper'. __________________ Falmon -- Dylan

01-26-2002, 12:46 AM	#13
Nameless Enting Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 68	I think bropous sums the Silmirillion up well: "it's sort of like reading chinese history" The first time I tackled the Silmirillion was straight after I first read LotR. Boy was I dissapointed!! I was expecting writing in the same style as LotR and found that I couldn't follow it at all. But after putting it away for 2 years, I read it again recently. This time I knew the writing style was different and I approached it accordingly! Wow!! The Silmarillion is fantastic! Every chapter was so interesting and left me wanting more. Now, I'm a fast reader, but I really had to take my time with this book. Everyone seems to change their name as often as they change underwear! (a pen and paper helps, as does referring to the index). I'm now reading LotR for the umptenth time. After the Sil, everything has more depth, and I find myself exclaiming outload "So that's why......" If you want to enhance your LotR reading experience, read the Silmarillion!! __________________ Nameless and Faceless, but not Voiceless - - - Do you hear me?

01-26-2002, 01:35 AM	#14
olsonm Elf Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: minneapolis MN Posts: 920	Maybe it's just me but I liked the, 'Of Beleriand and Its Realms' and 'Of the Noldor in Beleriand', chapters.

01-27-2002, 12:15 PM	#15
bropous EIDRIORCQWSDAKLMED DCWWTIWOATTOPWFIO Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 1,176	Well, it's not just you, olsonm. I liked the Belerian and Noldor chapters as well, just as I enjoyed all of the chapters in the book. __________________ "...[The Lord of the Rings] is to exemplify most clearly a recurrent theme: the place in 'world politics' of the unforeseen and unforeseeable acts of will, and deeds of virtue of the apparently small, ungreat, fogotten in the places of the Wise and Great (good as well as evil). A moral of the whole (after the primary symbolism of the Ring, as the will to mere power, seeking to make itself objective by physical force and mechanism, and so also inevitably by lies) is the obvious one that without the high and noble the simple and vulgar is utterly mean; and without the simple and ordinary the noble and heroic is meaningless." Letters of JRR Tolkien, page 160.

02-08-2002, 04:54 PM	#16
Curufinwe Enting Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New England Posts: 59	The Book of lost tales is, if you will, the first draft, or germ from which the silmarillion sprung. It is much more "primitive" (Melko is banished from the world when he climbes a tall pine tree that is then cut down) than the later silmarillion and is an end to itself - there are no second and third ages. The silmarillion is Tolkein's lifelong work which he never completed, and the published version comes mostly from his writtings in the late 50s. Some of the stories had not been touched for decades when Christopher began the great undertaking of editing and putting together the text. The fall of Doriath, for instance, had not been touched since before LOTR, so you can imagine he may have touched it up if he intended to put the thing in publishable form. It is a collection of tales, from the beginnings of middle earth through the sailing of the "last ship" from Mithlond and the beginning of the dominion of men (i.e. the end of TLOR).

02-10-2002, 12:42 AM	#17
Varda-Me Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 40	I also tried tackling it after reading LOTR and found it disappointing. I was much younger then. Now, after many years, I'm trying it again - with very different results. I would suggest reading it with a companion guide - you get so much more out of it. The glossary in the back is okay, but not great. I find myself very confused about the geography - I have a small paperback and the writing on the map is so tiny I can't read it - the type all blurs together. Still, it's very moving. The part of the Kinslaying really got to me - talk about treachery.

02-10-2002, 01:46 PM	#18
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	As for useing a reference guide to help you along, I would say it is fine to do that, but I would be careful if it is the first time you have read it. A guide can also be a SPOILER

02-16-2002, 10:05 PM	#19
Evenstar Elven Warrior Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Neverneverland Posts: 215	After reading this thread once I went out and bought the book!!! Now I just gotta start it!!! __________________ "Frodo, Mr Frodo," he called. "Don't leave me here alone. It's your Sam calling. Don't you go where I can't follow." FRODO LIVES !!!!

02-18-2002, 12:08 AM	#20
Varda-Me Hobbit Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 40	Yes, The Silmarillion is difficult at first. However, once you get into the rhythm of the language and text, it becomes easy - or, rather, less arduous. It reads like the old Testament, or ancient mythology. I'm reading it for the first time myself - I've just passed the part about Turin and Nienor. I guess my only complaint (which is really too harsh a word) is that there are so many characters that it is hard to keep them straight and to establish any kind of empathy with them. But, I still loved it (or am loving it, since I've not quite finished reading it). Keep on reading - it's worth it!

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