physical description of elves?

[Renille]

Yesterday at school, I was having this really fun argument with my only Tolkien-reading friend. It was about....yep...elves! She seemed to think that all elves were the short hairy creatures from dungeons and dragons. I tried to tell her otherwise, and we ended up arguing about this for about an hour,looking up references from LOtR, which I just happened to have along with me. The surprising thing was, I couldn't find much. So I just wondered, are there any good physical description in any of the books? I NEED to prove my dissilusioned friend wrong! (And supremely annoy her in the process...haha.)

[Matto Baggins]

on page 256 of fotr, Glorfindel is described as having "golden hair flowed shimmering in the wind of his speed. To Frodo it appeared that a white light was shining through the form..."
Another description of Glorfindel, "...tall and straight: his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength." this is in fotr on page 274.

hope this helps

[Sister Golden Hair]

Appendix F- The Return of the King-Balentine edition

"They were a race high and beautiful, the older children of the world, and among them, the Eldar were as kings, who now are gone: The People of the Great Journey, the People of the Stars. They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod; and their voices had more melodies than any mortal voice that now is heard. They were valiant, but the histories of those that returned to Middle-earth in exile was grievous; and though it was in far off days crossed by the fate of the Fathers, their fate is not that of Men. Their dominion passed long ago, and they dwell now beyond the circles of the world, and do not return."

From the Silmarillion- Houghtom Mifflin edition

"Immortal were the Elves, and their wisdom waxed from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought death to them. Their bodies indeed were of the stuff of Earth, and could be destroyed; and in those days, they were more like to the bodies of Men, since they had not so long been inhabited by the fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in the courses of time."

From The Complete Guide to Middle-earth- By Robert Foster

"Elves were the fairest of all earthly creatures, and resembled the Ainur in spirit. They were about six feet tall and somewhat slender, graceful but strong and resistant to the extreams of nature. Their senses, especially of hearing and sight were much keener than those of Men. Elves apparently did not sleep, but rested their minds in waking dreams, or by looking at beautiful things. The Eldar, and perhaps all Elves, could talk directly fromm mind to mind without words."

Some people find that Foster may not be exactly on target with some of his info, but I have found him to do just fine.

I too hope this is helpful.

[Eru]

And may I add that at no time, to my knowledge, were the Elves EVER described as having pointy ears.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Eru
And may I add that at no time, to my knowledge, were the Elves EVER described as having pointy ears.

That of course is debatable. There is a part in LOTRs where it desribes them as having leaf shaped ears. I can not recall which book it is in. For myself, I think their ears were like ours.

[galadriel]

I think Tolkien made the "leaf-shaped" comment in one of his letters. So, they do have pointy ears, but not ridiculously pointy dagger-like things (as some artists portray them). Instead, think Spock-ears, or perhaps even less pointed than that.

[Lightice]

Originally posted by Renille
Yesterday at school, I was having this really fun argument with my only Tolkien-reading friend. It was about....yep...elves! She seemed to think that all elves were the short hairy creatures from dungeons and dragons. I tried to tell her otherwise, and we ended up arguing about this for about an hour,looking up references from LOtR, which I just happened to have along with me. The surprising thing was, I couldn't find much. So I just wondered, are there any good physical description in any of the books? I NEED to prove my dissilusioned friend wrong! (And supremely annoy her in the process...haha.)

Short and hairy? Wouldn't that be gnomes, or something?
Anyway, it's not Tolkien to say, what elves are like. They were just his elves. Most known of them all, but still only his.
Currently I'm more interested of old elves, celtic ones.
Seelie and unseelie courts, Arcadia, the elf-country and all that
Those elves have much to do with nature-spirits, dryads, fairies, satyrs and even trolls. All they are elves, sort of.
But this is Tolkien-forum and here I respect Tolkiens wiew of elves and I have much hatred towards D&D so I'll stand behind others participated in this thread: You're friend is wrong .

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by galadriel
I think Tolkien made the "leaf-shaped" comment in one of his letters. So, they do have pointy ears, but not ridiculously pointy dagger-like things (as some artists portray them). Instead, think Spock-ears, or perhaps even less pointed than that.

Well, if they have to be portrayed as pointed, I approve of the Elven ears in the movie. They are just the right size and sharpness.

The reason I have always doubted the pointy ear theory, is because, (here I go again) when Finrod and Beren and the other Elves were stripped of their desguises by Sauron, it says that although their kinds were revealed, he could not determine their names or purposes. According to Tolkien there was no physical difference between Elves and Men. So, how did Sauron determine the difference between Beren and the Elves, since he was the only Man? Michael Martinez says that he only needed to see the light in their eyes to know.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Lightice


Short and hairy? Wouldn't that be gnomes, or something? .

If we stick to Tolkien's Elves, the word Gnomes was used in the early mythology to describe the Noldor.

[Ñólendil]

SGH, in your first post in this topic, where you quoted a passage from the Appendices, it may be noted that in revised editions it reads 'Finarfin', not 'Finrod'.

There is no passage in the LOTR which describes Elves as having leaf-shaped ears. What distinguished them from Men was their fairest faces, the light that shone within them, their bright eyes and their melodious voices. Nor is there any leaf-shaped comment in the Letters. Elves are said to have pointed ears in a somewhat illegible note in The Etymologies, published in The Lost Road and Other Writings. That text belongs to the old mythology and The Book of Lost Tales.

What J. R. R. Tolkien did say in The Letters (besides one I like to bring up now and then: 'Elves and Men are biologically the same') was that Hobbits had slightly pointed ears, and were 'well, Elvish'. But Tolkien was addressing American illustrators for the Hobbit, who couldn't have known what Tolkien's Elves looked like. He must have been talking about Shakespeare's Elves, or the Elves of Celtic Mythology.

[Sister Golden Hair]

SGH, in your first post in this topic, where you quoted a passage from the Appendices, it may be noted that in revised editions it reads 'Finarfin', not 'Finrod'.

I know that Inoldonil. I thought about saying as much. Finrod originaly was Finarfin.

There is no passage in the LOTR which describes Elves as having leaf-shaped ears.

That is not true. I can not tell you which book it is in, and I could find it at great pains without all the reading, but it is there.

[Ñólendil]

Draw your sword! Whatever pains you can put yourself into, you won't find any remark whatsoever in the LOTR about Elvish ears. You will probably find passages which may imply they had normally shaped ears. But if there was anything in there that mentioned leaf-shaped ears it would have been brought up before. Look in the Index under Elves, it will have a lot of page references. None of them will contain what you're looking for.

One other thing I might mention: 'Gnomes' is used in The Hobbit.

The first Elves seen in the romance are of course Gildor's company. Sam knows they're Elves even before he sees them, even before he had ever seen Elves. He knows because of their voices:

But at that moment there came a sound like mingled song and laughter. Clear voices rose and fell in the starlit air. The black shadow straightened up and retreated. It climbed on to the shadowy horse and seemed to vanish across the land into the darkness on the other side. Frodo breathed again.

'Elves!' exclaimed Sam in a hoarse whisper. 'Elves, sir!' He would have burst out of the trees and dashed off towards the voices, if they had not pulled him back.

'Yes, it is Elves,' said Frodo.

Further on we get a description:

They passed slowly, and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes. They bore no lights, yet as they walked a shimmer, like the light of the moon above the rim of the hills before it rises, seemed to fall about their feet.

This is all the description we are given the first we see them. From the speech that follows we get the impression that they are very fair people. You know all this of course, but I want to get across that our chief Elvish traits to go on are fair voices, light (vaguely, througout the story it becomes clear that there's a light in their faces and eyes) and beauty (in general). There is no mention of ears.

The meeting with Glorfindel sheds more light on the matter:

The light faded, and the leaves on the bushes rustled softy. Clearer and nearer now the bells jingled, and clippety-clip came the quick trotting feet. Suddenly into view below came a white horse, gleaming in the shadows, running swiftly. In the dusk its headstall flickered and flashed, as if it were studded with gems like living stars. The rider's cloak streamed behind him, and his hood was thrown back; his golden hair flowed shimmering in the wind of his speed. To Frodo it appeared that a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a thin veil.

Strider sprang from hiding and dashed down towards the Road, leaping with a cry through the heather; but even before he had moved or called, the rider had reined in his horse and halted, looking up towards the thicket where they stood. When he saw Strider, he dismounted and ran to meet him calling out: Ai na vedui Dúnadan! Mae govannen! His speech and clear ringing voice left no doubt in their hearts: the rider was of the Elven-folk. No others that dwelt in the wide world had voices so fair to hear.

Surely the pointed ears would have erased their doubt before his voice did?

[afro-elf]

galadriel

do you know which letter it was abd EXACTLY what it said?

i read somewhere also about leaf shaped ear

[Sister Golden Hair]

Inoldonil, you are right. I can't find it. Where did I get it from. I didn't dream it, did I? I also remember Michael Martinez mentioning "leaf shaped ears".

MUCHAEL!!!!!

[Ñólendil]

The leaf-shaped ears is in the Etymologies to The Lost Road and Other Writings, under the Las entry. But The Etymologies belong to the old mythos and The Book of Lost Tales.

[Eru]

Thanks Inoldonil for clarifying. I wish P. Jackson had consulted you before doling out the rubber aural extensions.

[UnStashable]

This may be a little late but I thought that Fingolfin and his sons (and their descendants?) also had blonde hair (although for some reason I have something where turgon has black hair). Matter of fact I think the only Noldor "rulers" in ME's first age of the sun, where the sons of Feanor (Apparently blonde is a dominant gene for elves). I’m probably wrong up though.

[Ñólendil]

It was Finarfin and his children (Finrod, Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel) that had the golden hair. Most Elves (among the Noldor and the Teleri alike) were dark haired. It was the Vanyar, 'the Fair' that had hair of yellow or deep gold.

I think blonde hair and pointed ears for Elves is just too 'traditional' or assumed not to be stamped on to Tolkien's Eldar in a movie. Truth is, in the narrative of the LotR it isn't really made clear that blonde hair is rare. Only in the Appendices does Tolkien say that they were dark-haired for the most part.

Feanor's hair was black, and all his children had dark hair. The eldest had red-brown hair though, and the two youngest also. This was very rare among the Eldar and came from their mother's side of the family.

[afro-elf]

didn't BOTH son's of indis have blonde hair?

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by afro-elf
didn't BOTH son's of indis have blonde hair?

Nope. It appears that only Finarfin and his children inherited that Vanyarin trait.

Also, IIRC, it says in the Tolkien Companion, that to signify their unusual hair color, their banner was woven in gold upon a blue field.