drug references

[Finglas]

Did anyone else find it a bit wierd how the movie made the 'weed' sound like pot? "Perhaps your love of the halfling's leaf has slowed your mind?"

[Steerpike]

Yes, that and Pippin and Merry's joy at finding mushrooms!

From the film, I pretty much assumed the Hobbit leaf wasn't just some version of tobacco.

[emplynx]

I did notice that even though Tolkien made it clear that it was nicotine...

[Varda]

yeah... it definitely sounded that way... wonder if pj was conscious of that at the time... and the mushrooms too

[anduin]

I interpreted the line from Saruman as a pot reference. But the reference to mushrooms I took as a nod to the title of a chapter. It wasn't IMO a reference to mushooms of the magic variety.

[samwise of the shire]

SPOILER


Sam:Trust a Brandybuck and a took
Merry:O come on it was just a little detour. A short cut
Sam:A short cut? A short cut to what?
Pippin:MUSHROOMS!!!

Notice in the first book on the fourth chapter (I think) the title of the chapter is "A Short Cut To Mushrooms"(this is'nt the first time that a title of a chapter is used in the movie. When Gandalf is trying to stay away from the Ring just as Frodo comes in he whispers"Riddles in the dark"which is the Nineth chapter(I think) in the Hobbit) and you forget that Hobbits LOVE mushrooms with a PASSION. "More then the greediest likings of men"is what the books says.
AND Merry and Pippin in the movie are COUNTINUALLY hungry and mischevious which explains the cute "What about second breakfast?" scene and the vegetable scene AND the firecracker scenes where Merry filtches and apple and does that cute little hopping thing.
As for the leaf. Would a stoned person be able to all the stuff that Strider did? I dont think so. I mean people who are stoned have a hard time standing straight let alone care for wounded and worried hobbits, guide them through perilous swamps,fight like a true warrior AND be able to think clearly enough to get his friends out of deep doo doo. And if you think that Tolkin had to be a drug addict to think up such a cool world then think again. When I was four I made up some of the COOLEST people and places and I still do and I have'nt even touched a cigarette let alone a marijuana pipe. So the probability of the Hobbits, Strider,Gimli,Gandalf,Saruman,and lots of other people being druggies is zero.
Sam
ps. What's wrong with Mushrooms?They're food are'nt they?Just as long as they are'nt poisonious then I'd eat 'em. Oh BTW tobacco does sort of slow the brain down.

[CardenIAntauraNauco]

I agree entirely with Samwise of the Shire. In any case I do not think it was the intention of Mr. Jackson

[Renille]

Go Sam!
The mentioned characters were all noble and good. Doesn't it seem a little degrading to portray them as druggies? By the way, I never saw Strider smoke at all in the movie. (Or was I missing something?) And yes, I know he does in the book.Anyway, I don't think that this was the film's intent. As for the mushroom thing, come on, they SHOWED the mushrooms! They looked normal enough to me. So no, I don't think the references were meant to be anything other than tobacco...which is harmful enough without imagining it to be anything else in the movie.

[Curandir]

I remember twice Strider smoking in the movie. Once in the Prancing Pony and another time while they were in camp somewhere on the road. I had never even thought of these things as drug references while I had read the books, but all of the snickering and chuckeling in the theater made me think twice about it. Pretty wierd! I know Tolkien wouldn't write about drugs like that even in a passing reference.

[Darth Tater]

I'm pretty sure he was smoking in the shreds of Narsil scene as well, but I'll have to look closer at my 3rd viewing to make sure.

I wonder if they'll deal with Saruman's addiction to the hobbit leaf in the next movie. It would certainly be an interesting sideline.

[Strange-Looking Lurker]

Oh, come on! It's not pot, that's for sure! And the reason that Sauraman said something to Gandalf about it was because they couldn't show him making fun of him about it at the White Concil, and yet they want to put that bit of humor in the movie.

[crow]

Am I the only one who has obsessively read and reread the prologues, forwards and appendices of the Trilogy, not to mention the Trilogy itself? In the Fellowship near the beginning it says "Hobbits have a passion for mushrooms, surpassing even the greediest likings of the Big People . . ." (pg 134-5 Ballantine edition/near the beginning of ch. 5). The excitement of Pippin, Merry and Sam when they chance upon a good crop of this delicacy is quite understandable and pure of the taint of drug addiction. I can't find where I read this, but the pipe-weed smoked by hobbits is probably lacking in those nasty chemicals which cause addiction and disease in humans today. The art of smoking as found in Middle Earth near the end of the Second Age was a very different thing from the addiction to cigarettes today.

[Curandir]

you're absolutly right crow. But I was just taken aback by the perception of the non-initiated in Tolkien's work. After reading the books so many times I had come to take the pipe weed and mushrooms as a matter of course.

[Steerpike]

Oh, I don't REALLY think that the mushrooms were a drug reference, I just thought it was funny. But the line about Gandalf being addled by his love of the "halfing leaf" seems to indicate that is isn't just a love of a good smoke. Not that it really matters one way or another.

The film is a separate work from the books, created by different people, so what Tolkien wrote or meant is neither here nor there
if we are talking about the film.

[bropous]

I agree with a previous post. Longbottom Leaf and mushrooms are dealt with in the forewords of FOTR. Neither are drug references. Longbottom Leaf is tobacco, and the mushrooms are the edible, non-psychoative variety.

Now, did Saruman smoke Longbottom Leaf? I don't think so, from Merry and Pippin's opinions. They thought the leaf was at Isengard to please Saruman's higher lieutenants. I imagine Saruman also bought up tremendous amounts of the 1419 vintage to create a shortage in the Shire. Anything to mess up happiness in the Shire, eh wizard?

Agreed. Tolkien wouldn't touch a drug reference with a ninety-foot pole.

[Steerpike]

Perhaps not, but that makes no difference as to whether or not there are drug references in the film.

[Billadillo]

I think it's important to remember that we're dealing with 2 different works of art here...

When you look at Tolkien's books, it's obvious that the references to smoking & mushrooms are totally innocent. There shouldn't even be any debate about Tolkien's intentions where this is concerned.

I think this thread was started, not to question Tolkien's intentions, but to question the intentions of the film makers.

Having read read Tolkien's books nearly a dozen times, I have grown to think of all the pipe smoking and mushroom craving as endearing things. It kind of showed how the characters took enjoyment in the simple things. But that is not how I received those parts of the film.

Unless he's been living in a cave for the last 50 years (gollum!), Peter Jackson had to know that in today's cultural context, the book's innocent references to pipe "weed" and mushrooms would be seen by most as drug references. Even though I was comfortable with these references before, I was still taken aback by Bilbo's comment about "Shire weed being the best around"...and Saruman's comment about "your love of the halfling's leaf has clouded your mind"

I think the handling of these scenes was irresponsible. Of course Tolkien never intended any drug references. As such, the film makers should have made the effort to clarify that the "weed" they were smoking was tobacco-like, not marijuana-like.

When it comes down to it, I suspect that the film makers knew exactly how it would be interpreted. I'm sure they thought it might help them sell a few more tickets to the druggie crowd. They think they can justify it by pointing to the references in Tolkien's work, but I think that's a lame cop out.

I still think the movies great though. Just disappointing to see more lame Hollywood influence.

[bropous]

I must respectfully disagree.

In the initial scenes of the Shire, in the market, sheaves of what are plainly tobacco are hanging drying in the sun. I can understand that there may be some who may automatically let their mind make the gap to drug references, but I think that is more the fault of the interpreter than the filmmakers.

I can, even having had ingested many, many mushrooms of the psychoactive variety in my younger years, hear a reference to mushrooms and not make the leap to my wilder days and more exotic tastes. When I hear "mushrooms", I am more likely to think automatically of a can of Green Giant buttons than psilocybe cubensis or amanita muscaria .

And, as one who delved more than once into the modern version of the "pipeweed", never made the connection between Longbottom Leaf and high-grade sensemillia. But, one does have to understand that some in our culture immediately think "marijuana" when they hear "weed". Again, I believe this to be in the realm of interpretation and not the intent of the actual word.

I am interested in others' thoughts on this.

Gilthoniel A Elbereth!

[Billadillo]

Well, as for the tobacco leaves in the market, I for one didn't notice that. I've only seen the movie once though, so I'll keep an eye out for it in my 2nd viewing. It's certainly not a very obvious reference IMO.

And even if you didn't immediately make the connection to drugs, the laughs and "yeah dude" comments I heard from the people around me suggest that you are the minority. Did anybody else experience this too? Or was what I heard just a fluke?

...some in our culture immediately think "marijuana" when they hear "weed".

Regardless of the amounts of pot & shrooms you consumed in your younger days, I'm willing to bet you that the majority of people would immediately associate "smoking weed" with marijuana.

Again, I believe this to be in the realm of interpretation and not the intent of the actual word.

I totally agree with you there. As I said earlier, it's obvious that Tolkien never intended any drug references in his work. That is a non-issue.

At question here is the intent of the film makers. It is ultimately up to the viewer to interpret what they see, but I still think the film makers had a responsibility to tell the story in such a way that modern cultural context did not misconstrue any of Tolkien's intentions.

With the loads of money the film industry spends on market research, you can't tell me they were unaware that comments like "Shire weed is the best" (while taking a long draw at his pipe) and "your love of the Halflings leaf has clouded your mind" (um...cotton brain, anyone?) would be interpreted by many as possible drug references.

As I've said before, I still think the movie was great. And most Tolkien fans I know don't think for a second that Tolkien intended any drug references. What bugs me is that people who have never read the book are getting the wrong impression.

[bropous]

It may seem I am contradicting myself, but I do think you are making some very good points here. I guess I was fortunate enough not to be cursed with the "yeah dude" audience! :- )

I do guess the film company could have thought better about calling Longbottom Leaf "weed" instead of "pipeweed", but I guess the "yeah dude" crowd would have made the inference even had the proper name been used.

Again, good points, all.