Scientific Classification of Middle Earth Races

[Varda]

If we applied the scientific classifications (i know there is another term for this but i forget... has been since 9th grade that i had biology), what would we call all the various races? are hobbits and humans the same species? or just all the different varieties of hobbits? is gollum the sames species as hobbits or is he an ancient ancestor which later on lead to the evolution of hobbits? since humans and orcs have been shown to be able to breed are they the same species or is the difference between them something like the difference between horses and donkeys, which produce mules (or nonviable offspring)?

or is it simply absurd to try to fit science into a fantasy tale?

i just thought it was interesting to think of since there were so many divisions and yet crossovers between the various races... and some people who believe in creationism (as is shown in the sil) still believe in evolution but only as a guided evolution... in that where there are seeming gaps, God filled in those gaps... but that's not really my question..

the question is, if you could classify the races in ME in a scientific or pseudo-scientific way, how would you go about that?

[afro-elf]

i'm on vacation and really don't my self studying for my up coming bio-courses until JAN
so my books are back in saudi

here is some stuff if you want a REALLY scientific classification

ABOUT THE NAMES
All of the labels in the taxonometric naming system have different parts. They describe the organism from general names to specific names. The order is...

KINGDOM (really really big)
PHYLUM/DIVISION (divisions are used for plants and fungi)
CLASS
ORDER
FAMILY
GENUS (genera)
SPECIES (very very specific)
VARIETY (for geographic isolation)


WHAT ARE CATS AND DOGS?

ANIMALIA -- CHORDATA -- MAMMALIA -- CARNIVORA -- FELIDAE -- FELIS -- CATUS

And then there is a dog...


ANIMALIA -- CHORDATA -- MAMMALIA -- CARNIVORA -- CANIDAE -- CANIS -- FAMILIARUS

If you look at the names, you will see that they are very similar, down to the last three parts. But look how different they are when they sit in front of you. Big differences


I don't recall the differences between each classification now

if someone does not give a reply you like i'll help you out when i get home

[Wayfarer]

*Yawn*

Elves, Men, Orcs, and Hobbits are all 'human'.

Elves and Men are genetically compatable.
Men and Orcs are genetically Compatable.
Hobbits are said to be a race of men (hitherto, they're likely compatible)
Orcs are presumably a mutant strain of Elf (as above)


So it's quite likely that any of the races in middle earth, excluding Dwarves, could mate and produce offspring.

Thus, using the haphazard classification system you're asking be used, they're all one species, though different races.

[afro-elf]

s

[afro-elf]

ELVES

ANIMALIA -- CHORDATA -- MAMMALIA -- OMINIVORE-- HOMO-QUENDI

the variety being VANYAR, NOLDAR, SINDAR, ETC

MEN

ANIMALIA -- CHORDATA -- MAMMALIA -- OMINIVORE-- HOMO-SAPIENS
the greatest variety being here

HOBBIT

ANIMALIA -- CHORDATA -- MAMMALIA -- OMINIVORE-- HOMO-HOBBITUS


i think you get the idea

[galadriel]

Genetically compatible are not neccessarily all one species. Species are differentiated because they don't normally breed, not because they can't breed. Bizarre animals such as the mule (horse-donkey cross) and the liger (lion-tiger cross) exist, even though their parents are from two different species. Genetically compatable beings (as far as I know) always share a genus, though.


So you've got:

Animalia - Chordata - Mammalia - Primata - Hominidae - Homo - Quendi

Animalia - Chordata - Mammalia - Primata - Hominidae - Homo - Sapiens-hobbitus (hobbits are an offset of men)

Dwarves would probably be much of the same: although we don't know that they're genetically compatible, they have many of the same characteristics as humans.

Are Orcs bred from Elves or from Men? I don't think Tolkien ever tells us clearly, but I could be wrong.

[Ñólendil]

It's a matter of heated debate. For a long time Tolkien was under the impression that the Orcs were bred from Men. You can read the full story in Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed. I will say that his final idea was that Orcs were made from Men, this being a part of the 'scientific Mythology' the author came up with, which -- as Tar-Elenion has recently pointed out to me -- is more in accord with the Lord of the Rings than the 'primitive Mythology'.

The Silmarillion understandably uses the primitive idea (which I am in love with), and so the Orcs in that book are made by Melkor from Elves.

[mirrille]

The most common biological definition of a species is where the member species can mate and produce viable offspring. Therefore, a horse-donkey cross gives you a mule. This means that the species can mate and produce offspring. But the big question is whether that mule can go mate with another mule, or a horse or donkey, and still produce offspring. It turns out that mules are sterile, so horses and donkeys are not the same species. This is the more rigorous definition of what some people here have been calling 'genetically compatible'. yeah...it's not as simple as just being able to breed once.

Now take and elf-human hybrid, for example Elrond. If he was sterile, then that would mean that elves and humans are not the same species. But he was able to mate an elf and produce offspring, so the species definition is fulfilled.

Distinguishing species is very complicated, so this is just one way of looking at it. There are others.

[Matto Baggins]

gollum is really an elf isnt he?
HOBBITS LIVE FREE!

[Darkhalcyon]

afro elf, i don't know what kind of latin you speak, but it's felis domesticus

[Wayfarer]

As far as i'm concerned, trying to 'scientifically cassify' the races of middle earth is utter bull.

Heck. If you can't figure it out n OUR world... why bother with fantasy?

[Kirinki54]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
As far as i'm concerned, trying to 'scientifically cassify' the races of middle earth is utter bull.

Well Wayfarer I would not go that far, one can toy with the idea sometime just for fun.
But I do think that a classifical model as the above would go against every intention of Mr Tolkien as to his purposes for creation his world in the manner that he did. That sort of science is not compatible with the mood or philosophy in the books. IMHO.

[afro-elf]

darkhalcyon

i THINK that is only for the domestic cats

not the "group" just above" but I could be wrong

[afro-elf]

hey darkcyon here is an example

the ocelot is a Leopardus pardalis

cheetah a Acinonyx jubatus

leopard Panthera pardus

jaguar Panthera onca

[afro-elf]

her classification is the best


if your REALLY interested try here in this stuff try here


http://gened.emc.maricopa.edu/bio/bi...ers_class.html

[Wayfarer]

What I'm saying is, the system of classification is just plain WRONG. It doesn't work.

Using physical features, you get X is most closely related to Y.
Using Chemical Characteristics, X is most lcosely related to C.
Using Genetics, it's related most closely to F.

Shouldn't that tell us that maybe the're not related to each other at all?

For example:

Quite a few people subscribe to the Feathers=Scales idea on looks alone. (they do look sorta similar)
However... Feathers grow out of follicles, like hair.
And they're a completely different Keratin. I can't remember which one exactly, but I think it was [the same as] fingernail keratin. Not sure.

So-what's the point? The only way you can come up with a defenitive answer is by disregarding 2/3 of the evidence, at the very least. Only preconceptions and stubborness keep man of us from just accepting that, dangit some things are different!

Understand what I mean?

[afro-elf]

can you translate that into a simple avari tongue please

[afro-elf]

WHO uses feathers = scales ?

just because there are different ways to classify things does not mean they are not related

you could classify something chemically or by physical properties it does not mean the thing is different


or that H2O is not related to 7 up

the idea this guy had was to just pose a question and I think galadriel gave the best taxinomic answer using a standard method

and yes somethings are different, some the same, some are similar

would it be safe to say that you just do not like the question

[Treebeard's apprentice]

Originally posted by Matto Baggins:

gollum is really an elf isnt he?

I am no ME expert (only read LOTR once), but I thought Gollum was a hobbit. Maybe my memory is wrong or I was confused when I read that part.

[Legolas]

Originally posted by Treebeard's apprentice
Originally posted by Matto Baggins:

I am no ME expert (only read LOTR once), but I thought Gollum was a hobbit. Maybe my memory is wrong or I was confused when I read that part.

Gollum is from a race closely related to Hobbits, but he is not one.
I don't know how that race is called, because I've read LotR only in Lithuanian...