andruil

[afro-elf]

Did Andruil actually FLAME as a MAGIC SWORD or was it figurative?

[Ñólendil]

Andúril. It was a magic sword, and at times the light of the Sun and Moon seems to have shone within it, but no, there was no actual fire on the sword, like that of the sword of the Witchking before Mithrandir. 'Flame of the West' was actually a loose translation of the name anyway (as I have recently learned from Tar-Elenion). Ril actually meant 'brilliant light'. So Andúril was nearer to 'Light of the West' than it was 'Flame~'. It's older name Narsil meant 'sun-moon', i.e, anar + isil. In the Silmarillion it says that those words were given to the Sun and Moon because Anar meant 'Fire-golden' and Isil 'the Sheen'.

[Comic Book Guy]

How did the Witch-King learn sorcery, if he was just a mortal man? I know he didn't become a Magican before he was Undead, because he ruled the witch realm of Angmar before that.

[Darth Tater]

I don't think he had sorcery himself, I think it was thanks to the gifts of Sauron and to the power of his ring

[Ñólendil]

I don't see why mortal Men can't learn magic. The Witch-King was a sorcerer-king, it certainly seems as though (whatever teaching Sauron gave him) that his magic was his own. The Mouth of Sauron was alive and breathing, but he was a Necromancer.

[Gerbil]

True. but don't read too much into the word necromancer.
A lot of words that Tolkien used to describe his characters meant something completely different to him than is generally accepted, even when in many cases he actually invented the things!

Gandalf and the wizards are a good case in point.
Wizards / magicians / sorcorers etc can mean anything these days from a card manipulator to a D&D 'casts spells everywhere' type thing to many more interpretations.

Tolkien's definition of wizardry was very subtle - much inner strength, wisdom beyond others, but it was very rare for them to show actual POWER.

So don't worry too much about it, things like necromancer probably meant he just practiced evil deeds and power, not that he raised the dead or was one himself.

[Ñólendil]

It is precisely the fact that he was not dead that makes the Mouth of Sauron a good part of my on going belief: Men could and did practice magic -- and not just the dead ones. But Tolkien may very well have used Necromancy in a way that is similar to the dictionary definition. The only other character I know of who is called a Necromancer is Sauron, and he was a master of spirits, and phantoms, and wraiths. Necromancy in Tolkien's works appears to be some form of his sorcery, which as I guess you know in an unsent draft of his Tolkien specified as the sort of magic opposing magia in nature: the unseen that causes effect.

As such I do not doubt that the Mouth of Sauron was capable of conjuring or calling upon the Dead; something that Sauron's servants are said to have been taught to do in Laws and Customs Among the Eldar.

[Darth Tater]

Give me one example where the Mouth of Sauron used "magic", just one!!!! Ya can't, can ya?

I think Tolkien took issue with people's understanding of "magic" in his world. It is not at all magic the way it exists in other fantasy stories. That's one of the things that makes LOTR so special, it's not over saturated with characters who can cast a spell every time something goes wrong.

[afro-elf]

i agree that i like tolkien is because of the low magic

but when frodo disappear at the prancy pony they thought he was a magician of unknown powers

know he is not a MAN but i think you get the point. that if they thought frodo could be a mage that it was possible for mortals to do it.

Mortals did make magic items

what about beorn? there is something about him on another thread speaking about him and magic


was there something about the numoreans practicing black magic
to prolong there lives

i would assume that the wizard and like existed before th istari arrived

so even if it was RARE mortals had the concept of mage


gerbil posts
"Gandalf and the wizards are a good case in point.
Wizards / magicians / sorcorers etc can mean anything these days from a card manipulator to a D&D 'casts spells everywhere' type thing to many more interpretations. "


but the istari DID have powers, from the hobbit and LOTR gandalf could "blast" stuff

so did elves
didn't finrod battle sauron in a magic duel ( duet)

i believe thrandruil commanded thje magic river in mirkwood

glorfindel soothed frodo's pain

i defer to others to give more examples ( HELP PLEASE)



Gerbil posts:

"Tolkien's definition of wizardry was very subtle - much inner strength, wisdom beyond others, but it was very rare for them to show actual POWER.

So don't worry too much about it, things like necromancer probably meant he just practiced evil deeds and power, not that he raised the dead or was one himself."

i'm not stating this as an aggressive challenge but as a genuine quiry.

is there a "mage like title" given to anyone who is obvisously not magical?

[Comic Book Guy]

But didn't Hobbits and other People have a stereotypical view of Gandalf because he was a wizard. When Sam was caught listening to Gandalf and Frodo at the start of the Lord of the Rings, Sam half expected Gandalf to turn him into a frog or a toad, also Butterbur thought his beer would go bad because he forgot to deliver the letter that Gandalf gave him.

• Gandalf used Magic to destroy the bridge of Khazad-Dûm
• He put the fear of fire into Gollum
• His Fireworks may have been magic, he could have just been very skilled with them.
• The fight with the Balrog surely must have used Magic
• Lighting a tree on fire

Thats all I can remember.

[afro-elf]

yes thats my point the people had "knowledge" or folktales of wizards powers. so they had to get the idea of magic from somewhere. i'd think the idea of wizard only came with istari

in the hobbit i think he burned a few wolves and was about to go nuclear when the eagles came

and he told beorn that he blasted some orcs

in trying to enter moria
he mentioned knowing all the spells in the tongues of elves men and orc that was ever use for such purpose ( opening the doors)


HEY maybe that answers the question
ELves, men and orc have spells

he also spoke a WORD in moria

and made light from his staff

he said he healed the eagle king of a wound ( i think in the hobbit)

[Ñólendil]

Give me one example where the Mouth of Sauron used "magic", just one!!!! Ya can't, can ya?

Er, no, he was only seen in one scene in the whole story. But he practiced Necromancy, that is said.

what about beorn? there is something about him on another thread speaking about him and magic

Yes, Beorn was a magician. This is said by Tolkien in letters.

Comic Book Guy, there are actually many more examples of Gandalf using magic. As for turning Butterbur's beer bad, I don't doubt he could have. For Gandalf in the event did just the opposite.

yes thats my point the people had "knowledge" or folktales of wizards powers. so they had to get the idea of magic from somewhere. i'd think the idea of wizard only came with istari

There must have been a Common Speech word for 'wizard', not of course invented by the Wizards! Frodo would not have called Gandalf and Istar, which is a Quenya name. But before the coming of the Wizards of the Second and Third Ages, 'wizard' must have had a more broad sense, and would have meant something else. In the Elder Days in Valinor the Wizards were the ingólemor, but this applied only to Elvish sages. I have also read of a Quenya word: sairon for 'Wizard' that does not apply to the Istari, but I am not very familiar with the sense.

[afro-elf]

i SHOULD have said


i' DO NOT think the idea of wizard only came with istari
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Comic Book Guy]

Inoldonil, was the mouth of Sauron not the messenger from Mordor who went to the dwarves asking for their friendship? Then again it could be a Nazgûl.
Also it says after my list of Gandalfs sorcery that that was I could Remember.

[Ñólendil]

Thanks for the correction afro-elf. Sorry I didn't read all of your post Comic. I guess I hurry unnecessarily.

I always thought the messenger of Sauron to Erebor was a Ringwraith, but perhaps your right. I don't know, it doesn't seem to me like he (meaning Sauron) would send out the Mouth for something like that. Some people think the Questioner who apparently tortured Gollum was the Mouth of Sauron (the BBC people did anyway).

[Gerbil]

A lot of interesting points.
It makes me wonder though - I think 'magic' is OUR perspective on a lot of things.
EG the elves undoubtedly to the humans appeared magical, and indeed they created a lot of 'magical' items - the rings for example, or the Silmarils etc. etc.
However, I'm wondering if this was 'true' magic (eg fireball) or merely the elves applying the science of middle earth with their far greater knowledge of how it all came together.
Because ME was a 'magical' land, surely powers pervaded everything, doing many seemingly magical things were merely a matter of channeling things correctly?

Gandalf and other Istari I'm sure could do 'genuine' magic, even the petty things such as turning beer to whatever, but there are very few examples of what I call genuine magic as opposed to 'natural' magic when viewed from the point of view of an inhabitant of ME. Even Beorn's shape changing is more a natural thing - my mental image of him would be him 'desiring' to be a bear, rather than casting a spell to change.

Don't forget that many things we think of as 'magical' would be, if not common-place, then at least something of historical knowledge. I think in a world such as ME, simple 'magic' would be possible all the time. After all, even the hobbits possess 'magic' - that of disappearing into forests etc. beyond what humans can comprehend. They don't view it as magic, however

[afro-elf]

in trying to enter moria
he mentioned knowing all the spells in the tongues of elves men and orcs that was ever use for such purpose ( opening the doors)


HEY maybe that answers the question
ELves, men and orc have spells

in the sense that gerbil means "REAL" magic




maybe magic items i can concede to technology( like alchemy)
as well as hobbits ability to move quietly and Elves many abilities

BUT would classify finrod's singing duel it sauron natural or true magic

didn't galadriel sing down the walls of dol guldor sp(?) natural or true

what about thranduil's control of the magic river in mirkwod

gerbil what is your defination channelling?


i

[Gerbil]

Moria-gates - good example.
I can't really answer - the fact that ME is a magical world is irrefutable, but what the limits are between natural and genuine magic are I don't know.

I can attribute a lot of your comments to being in touch with and therefore having some control over nature.

EG Galadriel + dol guldor and thranduil + river (and Elrond + Gandalf + river as a similar example) can be described as this natural magic. To me anyway

Finrod's singing duel with Sauron... hmmm tricky - can't remember. Must quickly read Sil OK - got it (nice poem btw
Again, I can treat that as natural magic, elemental if you like. The basic battle here was between illusion (Finrod's to maintain it) and 'truth' (oddly enough for Sauron - his attempts to uncover the illuisions).

You definately got me on the Moria-door. Also, things like the hidden Dwarf entrance to the Lonely Mountain in the Hobbit smacks somewhat of 'genuine' magic. Not necessarily the hiding, but the revealing. Pretty coincidental otherwise

As for channeling, I have in mind that much of ME's magic was related to nature, in the same way that the Valar aligned themselves to particular parts of the world and so gained power over those things (or you could look at it the other way around - they had powers of a certain description and therefore things came to being from their powers).
So Aule - skilled in earth. The Dwarves were big fans of his, and some of his magic was inherent with them. Therefore they had skills of the earth.
The Elves could draw directly from many more sources, many having lived amongst the Valar, so they would possibly have within them access to wind (often associated with illusions), fire (obvious), water, earth, healing, light etc.
What the Gods embodied gave a certain power to ME that the Elves and others (if they knew how) could tap directly into. EG Mr Morgoth, top dude of Darkness, had much of his magic to with it, either creating darkness or making terror from it. Same with Sauron.

I also say, I have to think that Tolkien possibly didn't nail this one down as well as he'd hoped. One of many possible 'oversights' in such a huge work

[afro-elf]

gerbil i just started a new post called magic and power .

there may be some info there of interest

[Wayfarer]

"Narsil meant 'sun-moon', i.e, anar + isil. In the Silmarillion it says that those words were given to the Sun and Moon because Anar meant 'Fire-golden' and Isil 'the Sheen'."

Where does this come from? I always assumed Nar 'fire' + Sil 'Shine'. Huh.