Tunisia, Egypt...

[Valandil]

Wow - lots going on lately along the north coast of Africa.

Thoughts?

[mithrand1r]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Wow - lots going on lately along the north coast of Africa.

Thoughts?

The common person wants a better life and they are fed up with the corruption and lack of freedom.

I do not want to see anyone hurt or dead. This has probably been ongoing for many years till these protests and/or revolts finally boiled over. Mubarak (sp?) has been in charge for about 30 years.


In the US we are loosing many of our freedoms in the name of security or any other boogie man of the day.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12317277

Originally Posted by BBC

The Tunisian upheaval began with anger over rising food prices, high unemployment and anger at official corruption - problems which have also left many people in Egypt feeling frustrated and resentful of their leadership.

[Alcuin]

Originally Posted by mithrand1r

In the US we are loosing many of our freedoms in the name of security or any other boogie man of the day.

Benjamin Franklin, “Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor”, November 11, 1755:

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Samuel Adams, August 1, 1776, in a speech at the State House in Philadelphia:

In a state of tranquillity, wealth, and luxury, our descendants would forget the arts of war and the noble activity and zeal which made their ancestors invincible. Every art of corruption would be employed to loosen the bond of union which renders our resistance formidable. When the spirit of liberty, which now animates our hearts and gives success to our arms, is extinct, our numbers will accelerate our ruin and render us easier victims to tyranny. If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude than the animating contest of freedom — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!

[Earniel]

I was kind of surprised that the revolt managed to take hold in Tunesia. I had expected the regime would bring out the big guns and break the revolt as so often happens. But it surprised me also that it spread so quickly to Jordan, I was under the impression that that was a more stable and reasonably happy country. Guess not.

Egypt gave me quite a scare, twice. Friends of my sister are there on an excavation mission, luckily they're deep into the desert and hopefully things have calmed down by the time the dig season ends.

And the revolt came too frightfully close to looting the Cairo museum for my taste as well! Protesters already destroyed two mummies. And since Hawass (Egyptian director of antiquities) has been badgering and blackmailing foreign museums for years to hand back their Egyptian collection for the Cairo museum, much of the best Egyptian archealogical treasues are gathered in that one place. The looting of Bagdad museum during the war was already a terrible tragedy, if Cairo museum gets looted and destroyed too, that disaster would be off the scale.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

The Library of Alexandria all over again.

[The Gaffer]

WTF??

Pro-Western despots getting ousted by popular uprisings. I think we may just have witnessed more democratic progress in the past 2 weeks than in the entire 8 years of the Iraq "intervention".

Hooray for the demonstrators. Hopefully none of these rogues gets so desperate to cling on that they let loose their armies.

Yemen, Jordan next.

Islamists seem to be keeping a low profile for the moment. Long may it remain the case.

At least Egypt has a sane, secular leader-in-waiting in El Baradei.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

And the revolt came too frightfully close to looting the Cairo museum for my taste as well! Protesters already destroyed two mummies. And since Hawass (Egyptian director of antiquities) has been badgering and blackmailing foreign museums for years to hand back their Egyptian collection for the Cairo museum, much of the best Egyptian archealogical treasues are gathered in that one place. The looting of Bagdad museum during the war was already a terrible tragedy, if Cairo museum gets looted and destroyed too, that disaster would be off the scale.

Unthinkable stuff:

Friday night, a group of "criminals" entered the Cairo Museum using a fire department staircase, Zahi Hawass, secretary-general of the Supreme Council of Antiquities, told CNN early Sunday.

Once inside the museum, they went to the Late Period gallery, Hawass wrote. "When they found no gold, they broke 13 vitrines (glass showcases) and threw the antiquities on the floor."

The group then went back to the gallery housing artifacts from King Tutankhamun's tomb, where they opened one showcase, broke a statue of King Tut on a panther and threw it to the ground...

[Valandil]

If these countries truly become democracies, it will be great.

But some are comparing this to when the Shah of Iran was deposed in the late 70's... over 30 years ago. At first, everyone thought it was so great, and that Iran would be a free, democratic state. But look what we got.

I sure hope this turns out differently.

Also... has anyone else heard this? I heard that some of this was caused by what came to light with the Wikileaks.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Also... has anyone else heard this? I heard that some of this was caused by what came to light with the Wikileaks.

From what I've heard, Wikileaks confirmed what many Tunisians had suspected, that the president's wife had granted her brothers some quite hefty benefits - courtesy of the tax payers.

[GrayMouser]

Her oldest brother, the Godfather of the family, has taken refuge in Canada, where he has Permanent Resident ststus- even though it should have been cancelled because he didn't meet the requirements of staying in Canada long enough in the past few years. The Canadian Gov't were frantically trying to deport him back to Tunisia, but he managed to file for refugee status. Given the backlog he'll be able to game the system for years, enjoying his ill-gotten wealth

[GrayMouser]

Egypt is the biggie though- and , yeah nobody knows what's going to happen.
Usually if the security forces stay loyal the gov't can ride things out (Green Revolution in Iran, Tiananmen)- that's why the attitude of the army has been so interesting. They appear to be trying to keep neutral- which actually favours the protestors.

The Muslim Brotherhood doesn't seem to have much voice in what's going on, though they're still the biggest organised opposition group. Now that Elbaraidi
(should be two words, shouldn't it?- I'm following the NYTimes usage here)
has become a rallying figure, the odds against Mubarak staying have to have been raised.

Luckily I get Al Jazeera English- they (naturally) have the most in-depth coverage.

[Tessar]

Yikes. Really sad to see those museums getting sacked.

Sadder to see the people affected by the strife.

[Valandil]

I'm a little surprised by the stance of our State Dept regarding Egypt ('not accepting' the changes made by Mubarek) - and now by President Obama coming out and saying that change must happen now. He's not exactly being a voice for reason, reconciliation and peace.

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I'm a little surprised by the stance of our State Dept regarding Egypt ('not accepting' the changes made by Mubarek) - and now by President Obama coming out and saying that change must happen now. He's not exactly being a voice for reason, reconciliation and peace.

Reasoning, reconciling and supporting 'peace' i.e. the political police force of a dictator gunning down peaceful protestors in the street?

[GrayMouser]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Yikes. Really sad to see those museums getting sacked.

Sadder to see the people affected by the strife.

Good to hear there have been groups of volunteers organised to protect the museums

[Insidious Rex]

And it appears now that at least some of the looters that caused the damage inside the museums were members of the police. Its now believed they were attempting to strike fear in the populace that chaos would take over without Mubarek to keep order. And they figured the best way to do that would be to go after the things that they cherish the most. Then Mubarek could say see! You need me to keep things under control and ensure security! Thank goodness the military isnt supporting him or it would probably have worked.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Reasoning, reconciling and supporting 'peace' i.e. the political police force of a dictator gunning down peaceful protestors in the street?

Yes - very bad stuff. And I don't mean to minimize it at all. But for the head of another nation - particularly the US - to say this openly about the head of another nation could have serious consequences in itself. If he had said it privately, that's one thing. Saying it publicly could further incite things there.

My opinion. But we'll see.

[Earniel]

Apparently (according to local news) Obama has telephoned with Mubarrak earlier today, so I assume he made the stance known to Mubarrak privately first?

Originally Posted by GrayMouser

Good to hear there have been groups of volunteers organised to protect the museums

Yeah, it was quite touching to see how they immediately formed a protective chain around the Cairo museum.

According to one news source the Memphis museum was not so lucky and was looted down to the gift shop, but I haven't heard any confirmation and I don't know what collection they had there. And of course looters are now turning to the open air archaeological sites as they are now no longer protected. Luckily, unlike in Iran, the local people know that the museum and the archaeological sites are what bring in the tourists and money, and here and there they've taken steps of their own to protect their heritage, like the people who formed a chain around Cairo museum.

Things start to look rather gloomy, though, with the increase of actual fighting.

[BeardofPants]

Women in Egypt: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?fb...675&aid=268523

Well worth looking through - amazing photos.

[The Gaffer]

Those are excellent pics.

Here's hoping they are still free to do that in 6 months' time. Expect the religious dunderheads to start pitching up in a week or so once the populace have done the dangerous bit.