Immortal Choice

[Barandur of Nargothrond]

“But when all was spoken, Manwe gave judgement, and he said:’In this matter the power of doom is given to me. The peril that he ventured for love of the Two Kindreds shall not fall
upon Earendil, nor shall it fall upon Elwing his wife, who entered into peril for love of him; but they shall not walk again ever among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. And this is my decree
concerning them: to Earendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be
judged.”

Elrond chose to join his fate with the elves and Elros to that of men. The question is why did Elrond's children continue to have a choice when it is never mentioned that the children of Elros don't seem to have the same option?

[Galin]

There is an interesting difference in a version of Quenta Silmarillion published in The History of Middle-Earth series: section 9, The Conclusion of Quenta Silmarillion, The Lost Road And Other Writings, in which it is said:

'(...) Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'

My response would be (based on this text anyway) that the choice was special dispensation -- only to Earendil, Elwing, Elros, Elrond. The children of Elros were mortal by default, 'restoring' the natural order of Eru.

The children of Elrond should be mortal by default too, but their parents had Elven fates, so to automatically return to the natural order here would mean automatically sundering Children from parents, even after death.

If Elrond and Elros are to be truly free to choose an Elven fate, I think they would at least want their potential children to have the option to follow them. But also, one cannot automatically withhold the gift of death from Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir, who all had a measure of mortal blood.

Thus the choice is extended to the children of he who chooses an Elven fate, and they are granted 'other doom'. But with the choice of a mortal fate, again, here the natural order is restored: Elros' children were not given special dispensation of course, and would not be automatically sundered from their parents in fate, nor (having a measure of mortal blood) are they withheld from leaving the Circles of the World upon death.

My take anyway -- unless it doesn't make sense

[Valandil]

Galin - I would tend to think that Elrond's children - because he had chosen to be counted among the Elves, and because his children's mother was an Elf - would have a default position of Eldar, not Edain.

I'd have to do some research about exactly where the choice of Elrond's children is stated. I know there's something about it in Appendix A. I don't know where else. It's possible though, that Manwe's statement may not have always been quoted in full, or remembered in full... or even known in full (who was there to hear it - who could also report back for Middle Earth chroniclers?). Also - at the time Manwe made this dispensation for Elrond, Elros and their parents, Elrond's children did not exist (nor would they for another 3500+ years). This may have been a later dispensation - perhaps communicated to Elrond some way. Perhaps the word was even brought by the Istari.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Galin - I would tend to think that Elrond's children - because he had chosen to be counted among the Elves, and because his children's mother was an Elf - would have a default position of Eldar, not Edain.

OK, but if so, why the choice? The very names of Elladan and Elrohir indicate (in enough measure) their half-elven status (letter 211). My stance is that they would have been default mortal with respect to fate, but of mixed heritage of course.

Also - at the time Manwe made this dispensation for Elrond, Elros and their parents, Elrond's children did not exist (nor would they for another 3500+ years). This may have been a later dispensation - perhaps communicated to Elrond some way. Perhaps the word was even brought by the Istari.

In any case (however it became known) I would merely maintain that this new dispensation was yet connected to Manwe's earlier judgement, and the natural order of Eru. There's an interesting draft text called T4 in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, which according to Christopher Tolkien: '...was and remained for a long time the form of the Tale of Years that my father thought appropriate, and was indeed proposed to the publishers in 1954.' It reads in part (concerning Elrond's children):

2300 '(...) These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.'

Now again, one could simply toss this out as a 'rejected' form of Appendix B, but in any event, Manwe (in QS) had said unless 'other doom' be granted, and I think the choice of Elrond (or Elros if he had chosen an Elvish fate) meant that a rather notable and arguably problematic matter still existed, and so the choice needed to be extended in Elrond's line: other doom was then granted to Elrond's children.

If Arwen, Elladan, Elrohir had even a drop of mortal blood, they should (according to the quote I posted) normally be automatically mortal, as would all beings of mixed heritage. No they were not born at the time of Manwe's statement, but this heritage, even in the event that Elrond married and Elf, would yet be known.

[Galin]

Before I go on blathering more about my own theories, I probably should add that Tolkien wrote this much in a letter, for example (the following quote is edited here, and full context is best). With respect the descendants of Elros and Elrond:

'Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal (...) Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children - with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrian dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices.' letter 153

Hmm

[Lefty Scaevola]

We see elsewhere that "gift to man" is view as something very important by Eru and the Valar, , pehaps it was view as something that could not be denied (at least by the Valar) to any descendent of humans without their free choice.