The Eye of Sauron

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

How do you envision the Eye of Sauron in a physical sense?

Do you see Sauron as normal, two-eyed, and "the Eye" is just a figure of speech?

Or do you see him as having one eye missing, perhaps with an eye patch or just a vacant socket?

Or do you see Sauron the cyclops with one eye in the center of his forehead?

Or is he simply an Eye, like in the movies?

I kind of like the eye patch idea, being a Dread Pirate and all, but I honestly go back and forth between it being a figure of speech and him having one empty eye socket.

[Noble Elf Lord]

I'm afraid I'm still influenced by the movies, but the "Great Eye" is mentioned in the book, so I go for one giant eye, "wreathed in flame". Wasn't there a mention somewhere in the book that he had a room for the Eye in Barad-Dûr, not a "cup" like in the films? ( I )

[Gordis]

A few years ago there was a long and heated thread here about the Eye.... Let me see... HERE it is.

I remember I used to argue that Sauron indeed had only one physical eye (after his fight with Elendil and Gil-Galad). But I don't think so anymore.

Someone had posted a quote from Akallabeth describing how after the Downfall Sauron returned to Mordor:

There he took up again his great Ring in Barad-dûr, and dwelt there, dark and silent, until he wrought himself a new guise, an image of malice and hatred made visible; and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.

So unless he lost one eye in the Downfall, the representation of Sauron as "the Eye" mist be purely metaphoric.

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

I'm afraid I'm still influenced by the movies, but the "Great Eye" is mentioned in the book, so I go for one giant eye, "wreathed in flame". Wasn't there a mention somewhere in the book that he had a room for the Eye in Barad-Dûr, not a "cup" like in the films? ( I )

Sauron had a room for his palantir most likely. And he did have a physical body with 9 fingers on one hand.

[Noble Elf Lord]

The idea of S having an actual body is wierd. Perhaps the PalantÃ*r was focused on his Eye, like there was a Mordor bug holding a lil TV-camera in front of it? And S himself resided in another room, so all those "weak" who beheld either the P of B-D or some other one, would see only that Eye - hence the idea of there being but a single eye.

Maybe Gollum's lust for the Ring granted him temporary power to see something else as well, like S's hands, and maybe Gollum thought that he could thus have clues about the whereabouts of the Ring. Remember, this is mad old Gollum we're speaking. I said this cause Gollum knew S only had 9 fingers, how else could that have been? He hardly heard that accurate stories.

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Gordis, it is indeed my belief (sometimes) that he lost one eye in the downfall.

Either he lost it physically during the destruction of Numenor (falling and flying debris can put your eye out) or some spiritual harm before/during the downfall prevented him from reforming a body with two functional eyes. It is clear the guy lacked depth perception in a metaphorical sense as well as having a narrow view.

Other times, I agree that he probably had two eyes like everyone else but had "a look" that he'd give, earning the description "the Eye."

Noble Elf Lord, there is no doubt or debate about whether Sauron had an actual body. Gollum knew Sauron had nine fingers because he saw them. Sauron tortured him personally. I think there's also something in HoME or Letters verifying the fact.

[Gordis]

DPR, unfortunately, the idea of one-eyed Sauron is crushed by the other quote also posted by Maerbenn in the old thread Maerbenn's post

From ‘Myths Transformed’ in Morgoth’s Ring:

... Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his ‘eye’ wherever they might be; and when Morgoth was at last removed from Arda the Orcs that survived in the West were scattered, leaderless and almost witless, and were for a long time without control or purpose.

It would be too much of a coincidence if BOTH Morgoth and Sauron physically ended up with one eye.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Gordis

It would be too much of a coincidence if BOTH Morgoth and Sauron physically ended up with one eye.

No it wouldn't... That would be somewhat ironic. I don't believe Mor did though. So go figure.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Gordis, it is indeed my belief (sometimes) that he lost one eye in the downfall.

Either he lost it physically during the destruction of Numenor (falling and flying debris can put your eye out) or some spiritual harm before/during the downfall prevented him from reforming a body with two functional eyes. It is clear the guy lacked depth perception in a metaphorical sense as well as having a narrow view.

Other times, I agree that he probably had two eyes like everyone else but had "a look" that he'd give, earning the description "the Eye."

Noble Elf Lord, there is no doubt or debate about whether Sauron had an actual body. Gollum knew Sauron had nine fingers because he saw them. Sauron tortured him personally. I think there's also something in HoME or Letters verifying the fact.

Don't forget that Sauron had a physical road to the Sammath Naur, kept clear by the labor of countless Orcs. What good would that do if he had no physical body?

[Willow Oran]

The Eye of Sauron always reminds me of this bit from the Irish mythological cycle:

Lugh and Balor of the Piercing Eye met in the battle. An evil eye had Balor. That eye was never opened save only on a battle-field. Four men used to lift up the lid of the eye with a (polished) handle which passed through its lid. If an army looked at that eye, though they were many thousands in number they could not resist a few warriors. Hence had it that poisonous power. His father's druids were concocting charms. He came and looked over the window, and the fume of the concoction came under it, so that the poison of the concoction afterwards came on the eye that looked.

Balor was one of the Formorians, and he had two eyes, one of which was normal and the other of which was the grotesque thing described above. It seems like the Eye of Sauron could mean some similar deformity turned weapon.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Willow, that's an ingenious thought. (Did I type that right?) Well then - suppose it was a weapon like that - was it really a deformity which Sauron took advantage of, or did he plan it as such? Could be either way.

[Earniel]

I usually thought of Sauron to have a physical, fairly humanoid body, with two eyes. The references to the Eye I took to as a description of Sauron's power, to create a feeling of presence from afar, so you'd continually have the uneasy idea that he was always there, watching you, knowing what you were thinking. Something that never makes you feel safe.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I usually thought of Sauron to have a physical, fairly humanoid body, with two eyes. The references to the Eye I took to as a description of Sauron's power, to create a feeling of presence from afar, so you'd continually have the uneasy idea that he was always there, watching you, knowing what you were thinking. Something that never makes you feel safe.

*Applause*

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by Attalus

*Applause*

Sarcastic or sincere?

[Alcuin]

Tolkien writes in Letters that “Sauron should be thought of as very terrible� to look upon – as in, “inspiring terror�, frightening. I believe he also goes on in that Letter to say that he did have a body, and hands (but was missing a finger – the same way that Frodo was later missing a finger).

But I always imagined Sauron as cyclopean. Wikipedia repeats the theory that belief in Cyclops probably arose from Greek discoveries of fossils: this is the skull of a dwarf elephant displayed in the zoo of Munich, Germany:

In my research on this (searching for a neat image), I found this post on Odysseus and the Cyclops with this image of that part of the Odysseus myth; it is very like the image I have had of Sauron “in my mind’s eye.�

There is also a painting by Odilon Redon (1840-1916) , The Cyclops, ca. 1914:

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Originally Posted by Gordis

DPR, unfortunately, the idea of one-eyed Sauron is crushed by the other quote also posted by Maerbenn in the old thread Maerbenn's post

It would be too much of a coincidence if BOTH Morgoth and Sauron physically ended up with one eye.

I wouldn't say that crushes the idea at all. There is no reason "the eye" can't be used as an expression in regard to one person and literal in regard to another. None whatsoever.

I usually thought of Sauron to have a physical, fairly humanoid body, with two eyes. The references to the Eye I took to as a description of Sauron's power, to create a feeling of presence from afar, so you'd continually have the uneasy idea that he was always there, watching you, knowing what you were thinking. Something that never makes you feel safe.

That is a fine interpretation. I don't think there is any way to disprove that that's the case. However, what about references to being under "the Eye" while in Sauron's presence?

I'm starting to like the idea of one good/normal eye and one freaky/scary eye, but there's no real evidence of that.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

That is a fine interpretation. I don't think there is any way to disprove that that's the case. However, what about references to being under "the Eye" while in Sauron's presence?

I don't see any problem with that. I suppose that while he could do it at a distance, the effect would be stronger in his presence. He may not have had a fair form to look upon in the Third age, but I suspect it still was very intimidating.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

what about references to being under "the Eye" while in Sauron's presence?

Could you quote them, please, DPR? I can't recall them straight away...

[The Dread Pirate Roberts]

Not two minutes into my search for quotes supporting a one-eyed Sauron I found one that speaks strongly against it. From 'The Council of Elrond'. Note the plural:

'Despair, or folly?' said Gandalf. `It is not despair, for despair is only for those who see the end beyond all doubt. We do not. It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope. Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.'

And yet another use of "the Eye" in a symbolic sense.

He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Númenor.

And one more description of the Eye as a symbol for Sauron's searching will:

But far more he was troubled by the Eye: so he called it to himself. It was that more than the drag of the Ring that made him cower and stoop as he walked. The Eye: that horrible growing sense of a hostile will that strove with great power to pierce all shadows of cloud, and earth, and flesh, and to see you: to pin you under its deadly gaze, naked, immovable. So thin, so frail and thin, the veils were become that still warded it off. Frodo knew just where the present habitation and heart of that will now was: as certainly as a man can tell the direction of the sun with his eyes shut. He was facing it, and its potency beat upon his brow.

I find I must concede that "the Eye" of Sauron is almost certainly not to be taken literally. The embodied Sauron has two eyes just like any other binocular creature, apparently. That's not to say one of his eyes isn't literally rimmed with fire while the other one is relatively normal. I think it bears further investigation.

[Attalus]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

Sarcastic or sincere?

I don't do sarcastic when it comes to Tolkein, unless it involves Feanor, using the Eagles to throw the Ring into Mount Doom, or the defeat of the Witch-King. The applause was and is sincere.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by The Dread Pirate Roberts

Not two minutes into my search for quotes supporting a one-eyed Sauron I found one that speaks strongly against it.

Yes, I have been through it myself. I used to argue that Sau lost one of his eyes to Gil-Galad's Aiglos, but then abandoned it for lack of evidence.