Tolkien looking down on women?

[Noble Elf Lord]

Why there were no female characters in the Fellowship? And for the whole story, I think I´ll remember four woman "heroes": Lady Galadriel, Lady Arwen, Lady Eowyn and the woman in the Houses of Healing. Why? Surely, they could have added some female wisdom and logic, which are beyond us men. I can´t think of any argument with which to defend this without offending women and being a chauvinist. Then again, it´s 22.34 and I´m tired. Thoughts?

[elvensmith]

Ur right! Thats why i decided to make up my own woman character and write Tolkien stories about her... its really fun. U should visit my thread: Make up ur own character. u can find it next to movies ( that was a mistake) in the tread section. Hope u visit.

[Earniel]

I've never found it bothersome that there wasn't a single woman in the Fellowship itself. Why should there have been? There were several female characters in the books outside the Fellowship, who've gotten their share of the lime-light.

No, I don't think you can accuse Tolkien of looking down on women, in fact I'd almost say he looked up to them. Nearly all the women are beautiful, strong in character, and some even powerful, and every single one of them on the good side.

[BeardofPants]

Tolkien was a product of the times. Not that the times have changed much. If we needed to save the world from a megalomaniac and a ring, I'm sure we'd still send an all-male crew.

[Earniel]

Hm, maybe. I'm thinking if we needed to rid the world of malvolent jewellery again, we probably send the politically correct team: a hero, a woman, somebody black, somebody muslim, somebody homosexual, and a few other depending on our target group.

[Noble Elf Lord]

Originally Posted by elvensmith

Ur right! Thats why i decided to make up my own woman character and write Tolkien stories about her... its really fun. U should visit my thread: Make up ur own character. u can find it next to movies ( that was a mistake) in the tread section. Hope u visit.

I´ll visit your thread for sure. Though I prefer not to make Tolkien stories myself, don´t think they´ll be good enough to honor Professor Tolkien. But my own book is going strong.

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Hm, maybe. I'm thinking if we needed to rid the world of malvolent jewellery again, we probably send the politically correct team: a hero, a woman, somebody black, somebody muslim, somebody homosexual, and a few other depending on our target group.

i'd be tempted to send in the elite Muppet SAS "Band" - they have a proven track record.

Of course this may be discriminatory against the Fraggle freedom group or possibly infringe on the rights of the tele-tubbies.

.......


To be quite frank , Noble elf lord, i am constantly flabhergasted at JRR's total lack of a lesbian character - do you think this also was a deliberate stance?

I look forward to your views.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

i'd be tempted to send in the elite Muppet SAS "Band" - they have a proven track record.

Of course this may be discriminatory against the Fraggle freedom group or possibly infringe on the rights of the tele-tubbies.

.......


To be quite frank , Noble elf lord, i am constantly flabhergasted at JRR's total lack of a lesbian character - do you think this also was a deliberate stance?

I look forward to your views.

Women weren't relevant to J.R.R.
The Important "work world" he lived in was essentially a medieval and monastic one.Women weren't even cleaning the rooms. And the impact of the Great Wars on gender in British society can't possibly be overstated. Men worked to protect the women and children they might not even see again. I've always thought the most vivid depiction of women in the LOTR was the story of the Entwives. Surely that reflects a loss he perceived in his universe that was characterized as 'beyond human aid" in a sense. It's just a foreshadowing to all the losses that concern the characters, as innocence passes away (or takes ship at the Grey Havens) the loss that's felt most keenly is the loss of the women.

It's not great for role models, but it never struck me as 'disrespectful.", only somewhat naive, in a way.

[elvensmith]

I don't care what most of u say, but i totally believe that Tolkien was a little sexist. You say that he wasn't, but his only important female characters were also victims... and there were only about 4 of them. If he truly believed women were as good as men, then he'd have included one in the Company. Also, I think he contributed to this fact by not clearly including a woman dwarf... i mean, do they even exist.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by elvensmith

I don't care what most of u say [..]

Mkay, but why bother asking our opinions then?

Oh hang on, nevermind, I'm obviously confusing people.

[Pytt]

Maybe the bit about dwarf females is that it should continue to be somewhat of a mystery if dwarfs really is formed in stone, and leaps out? A female dwarf would ruin some of the dwarfish fun for me at least.

Good point, Earniel

[Fohel]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

I've never found it bothersome that there wasn't a single woman in the Fellowship itself. Why should there have been? There were several female characters in the books outside the Fellowship, who've gotten their share of the lime-light.

No, I don't think you can accuse Tolkien of looking down on women, in fact I'd almost say he looked up to them. Nearly all the women are beautiful, strong in character, and some even powerful, and every single one of them on the good side.

Your right. The book is set in a time when nearly all the warriors were male. Tolkien is therfore just reflecting a time where woman did tend to be looked down apon. Tolkien clearly looks up to woman. Who killed the Witch King Eowen. This clearly shows that woman are just as brave as men but they just didn't get the chance to show their valour.

What about Gladriel? She is one of the most powerful people on Middle Earth. An author which creates characters like this is unlikely to look down on woman.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Noble Elf Lord

And for the whole story, I think I´ll remember four woman "heroes": Lady Galadriel, Lady Arwen, Lady Eowyn and the woman in the Houses of Healing.

There were also Rosie Cotton and Shelob

[Acalewia]

The women in Middle Earth were strong women with unfailing hearts. Eowyn could have did what her uncle said. If not that, she could have ran when faced with the WitchKing. IMO, Eowyn is the strongest character in the book. I have always wondered why Tolkien didn't include at least one woman in the Fellowship, but they were helped along the way by mostly women.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Acalewia

The women in Middle Earth were strong women with unfailing hearts. Eowyn could have did what her uncle said. If not that, she could have ran when faced with the WitchKing. IMO, Eowyn is the strongest character in the book.

Eowyn's choice to abandon her duties and follow the army to seek glorious death was weakness, not strength.
She was appointed by the King to lead and guard the remaining people of Rohan - a position of trust and honor. Like a lovesick teenager, instead of doing her duty, she chose suicide. A glorious suicide- in the manner of her brave people, but suicide nonetheless. That is why she was not afraid of the Witch-King - not because she was so very brave, but because she had no hope.
She abandoned her post in wartime. Anyone but her would have been punished. She had the incredible luck to kill the Nazgul Lord, thus her treason was not taken note of. The facts that she was the new king's sister and was severely wounded also helped.
I think she displayed strength of character only when she managed to overcome grief and Shadow and seek a new life. Faramir helped in that.

[Lotesse]

Tolkien looking down on women? No way. Hell no, he didn't look down upon women, but to me it has always seemed very obvious that this great literary genius we love and respect so much just didn't know women, only in a fantasy romantic sense, in his own beautiful mind, but certanly he did not write about them with the kind of pure, instinctual knowledge that he did about all of his brilliantly conceived male characters.

Tolkien was a man's man. I mean, he seemed creatively either careful or completely unrealistic about how he wrote about women, and how he designed his female-gendered characters. Because he may not have figured out how to know women on the LEVEL in his own real-life very well, by this lack of life-experience he both limited the quantity of great female characters in his epic story and then gave the ones he did create and did include in the Rings drama a fantastic and romantic quality. Each one of the female heroines or major players in LotR is sort of too-perfectly feminine, or larger-than-life (Galadriel, Rosie Gamgee, Arwen, Eowyn). Or fatalistic, or impossibly and slavishly romantic, or like Gordis was saying about Eowyn.

And yeah, speaking of drarven women, where are all the female dwarves? I think Tolkien didn't know women as he did men in real life, and this lack of knowledge and experience with his opposite sex endedup being carried through into his art. It doesn't matter to ME, I love his art anyways.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I agree with Lotesse that Tolkien's view of women is more naive than negative. But remember, LOTR owes more to medieval romances (in the literary term) than to any other form. It follows those conventions pretty closely, with the hobbits in a sort of "Piers Plowman" role.

That's the basis for a disagreement with Gordis. On the face of it (and personally) I agree completely about his description of Eowyn's behavior. In modern terms, she "abandoned her post." But Eowyn isn't a modern character, and Tolkien didn't see her in modern terms. She's clearly Elaine to Aragorn's Lancelot, and pining and fantasy is part of her responsibility. It's actually one of the few moments when Tolkien departs from the strict formula that he permits Eowyn and Faramir a happy ending.

[Jon S.]

We need to remember our historical contexts. Some here appear to be concluding that because Tolkien's romanticized and limited view of women would be deemed negative in much of today's Western world, therefore Tolkien looked down on women. He absolutely did not. He looked up to them but did so through the spectacle of his upbringing and time.

Just as some sages interpret the verse, "Noah was blameless in his age" (Genesis 6:9), to mean, "Noah was blameless only in his age; in other ages, he would not have been considered righteous" (R. Jochanan), so I would say, Tolkien looked up to women in his age; in other ages, he would not have been deemed to look up to them.

But Tolkien did not live in those ages, he lived in his age. So cut the good professor some slack, folks!

[brownjenkins]

There are few characters, male or female, more mentally strong than Luthien, so I don't know if I agree. If you look at the entirety of Tolkien's work, I'd say that females play a surprisingly strong role in many places given Tolkien's time (the female Valar, Ungoliant, Galadriel, Eowyn).

As far as the fellowship went, Sauron and the Ring was a problem caused by males (Sauron, Manwe for not finishing the job at the end of the First Age, Isildur for not finishing the job at the end of the Second Age, etc.). Why should the females be expected to save their butts?

[Noble Elf Lord]

Great points, everyone. I think that the views of Lotesse and Jon S. are especially good when combined. But surely Tolkien could have fixed his inknowledge by talking to women he knew about the female characters of the book? As for me, in my book the main character is a girl(or woman, whatever way you want) who is about 18 -19 years old, so I´ll have to ask the girls in my class about the female way of thinking. Otherwise, with my masculin way of thinking, she´ll propably end up being less smart than she ought to be. And Butterbeer, I think that the lack of a lesbian charcter was half-deliberate - it possibly didn´t even cross his mind to add the theme into the book. I won´t, anyway. And I´ve never liked analyzing any story - I read them purely because I enjoy dwelling in those worlds and great stories. Perhaps naive but also an innocent way of thinking.