When the black breath blows...

[Gordis]

It is interesting to date this rhyme’s origin.

Unless, of course, you give heed to rhymes of old days which women such as our good Ioreth still repeat without understanding.
When the black breath blows
and death’s shadow grows
and all lights pass,
come athelas! come athelas!
 Life to the dying
In the king’s hand lying!

The rhyme speaks of the Black Breath – so it should refer to the presence of the nazgul. And it also refers to a King-healer using Athelas to counter the Black Breath. So, when did Gondor had both a King and the nazgul nearby?

I think there are two, maybe three possibilities.
1. The rhyme is very old, speaking of the Last Alliance times when Gondor was attacked by Mordor at the end of the Second Age. The King then must have been Anarion, I think, more likely than Isildur or Elendil – as those two spent a lot of time away in Arnor, while Anarion defended Gondor for the time the Last Alliance army had been gathering.
2. The rhyme is more recent, from the times of the Siege of Minas Ithil by the Nazgul TA 2000-2002. The King at the time was Earnil - father of the last King Earnur. We have never heard of him as Healer specifically, we don’t even know if he even tried to deliver Minas Ithil. Still this dating seems more likely than the first option.
Before 2000 there were Kings but no nazgul near Gondor. Later there were nazgul, but no King, only Stewards.

Thoughts?

[Earniel]

Interesting discovery, Gordis.

Another possibility may be perhaps that the nazgul are not the only possible source of black breath?

[durinsbane2244]

Or perhaps it is a prophetic poem? That's what I had always gathered...a poem handed down from long ago when someone caught some glimpse of the future, and over the years it faded into an old-wives tale...

[Earniel]

Interesting idea! Who knows, it may even have originated with Malbeth, the Arnorian seer that prophetised Arvedui's name and fate.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Since Athelas is found in both Arnor and Gondor and originated in Numenor it may refer to a time in the second age when the Numenoreans aided in the wars with Sauron, or in the third age when the Witch-King haunted the dreams of the North Kingdom. The Nazgul appear again in the third age circa 1300 while there still was a king in Gondor as well as Arnor.

[Olmer]

The history of the rhymes doesn't go much farther then the Numenoreans war with Sauron. I'd say at least a couple of Numenorean Kings has got entrapped by Sauron's cunning devise. Since they were great men, with a lot of advance knowledge in magic and potions making, they, probably, were using Athelas to forestall the imminient fading and complete submission.
On another hand ,as Gandalf has been mentioning, a lot of lesser wraiths were wandering around since the war with Angmar. If Arnoreans were making a daggers, which were able to bring down the wraith, then they definately were looking for some reliable remedies for such malady.

[Gordis]

I still think that the rhyme was Gondorian - it is implied it was widely known there, unlike Malbeth's prophesies.

And if it was Gondorian in origin, than the likeliest time was the Siege of Minas Ithil - TA 2000-2002, in King Earnil's time

We know little about Earnil, the father of the last king Earnur, but still we can make some speculations.
Earnil was a great captain of war, but reasonable (Hadn’t he left Minas Ithil to the Nazgul, instead of making a bloodbath around the fortress until he lost all his army there? Hadn’t he decided to never use the Palantir after one Stone had been captured?) as well as honorable and compassionate (because he has sent help to Arvedui despite the fact that the Northerner had previously challenged his own right to the throne). I think he could have used his healing powers to help his men afflicted by the Black Breath near Minas Ithil – it won’t be out of character.

Also there is this other quote that I should have put in my original post:

“The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.’

This last part is interesting. I would advance a speculation that it may contain another reference to Earnil. He was chosen over other claimants as a successful captain of war, but it seems that the healing powers he displayed had helped him to assert his position as the rightful king.

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally Posted by Gordis

I still think that the rhyme was Gondorian - it is implied it was widely known there, unlike Malbeth's prophesies.


This last part is interesting. I would advance a speculation that it may contain another reference to Earnil. He was chosen over other claimants as a successful captain of war, but it seems that the healing powers he displayed had helped him to assert his position as the rightful king.

I agree the expression regarding "the hands of a healer" can only come with failing the line of kings - where prior the next king was fairly clear. However this later part may have an addendum to the original saying. This was why Tolkien's world is so rich, we can try to figure out the origins of some obscure saying mentioned by a tertiary character late in the story.
Of course Tolkien is probably basing this whole healing tradition from other sources of antiquity.

[CAB]

I'm a bit late here, but…

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

Or perhaps it is a prophetic poem? That's what I had always gathered...a poem handed down from long ago when someone caught some glimpse of the future, and over the years it faded into an old-wives tale...

I think durinsbane put forth the correct answer. To me, this other quote strengthens the prophesy idea.

"The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known."

In earlier times they already knew who was the rightful king. There was no need for him to prove himself by healing powers, until Aragorn.

Also, regarding the poem, wasn't the Black Breath called a new or unfamiliar sickness? Maybe the people of Gondor would unknowingly give this malady the same name it had many years before (it seems a fitting enough name), but this would still be quite a coincidence.

[Gordis]

Almost missed your post, CAB.
Yes I agree it MIGHT have been a prophesy.

But:

Originally Posted by CAB

In earlier times they already knew who was the rightful king. There was no need for him to prove himself by healing powers, until Aragorn.

I tried to point out that in the history of Gondor there was a single King who needed proof that he was the rightful one - namely Earnil. He was chosen over other claimants because he was a successful war captain. But it had to give him a lot of additional points if he also had healing skills of the Kings.

Originally Posted by CAB

Also, regarding the poem, wasn't the Black Breath called a new or unfamiliar sickness? Maybe the people of Gondor would unknowingly give this malady the same name it had many years before (it seems a fitting enough name), but this would still be quite a coincidence.

The nazgul had besieged Minas Ithil for 2 years - I don't think there was no one affected by the Black Breath this time. But in a thousand years things tend to become forgotten...

[Butterbeer]

Of course, it is also a very handy plot device.

I always rather thought that Arargorn established his claim rather easily to the populace.

Mayhap Boromir may have ceded it after being a companion with him for so long ...but when back at the Citadel..when at home as captain and Heir to the Tower?

mmmm...


As to Denethor we know full well had he lived he would not have accepted Aragorn's claims.

I would think the old saying is indeed at least imbued certainly with a prophetic tinge, but i am not overly sure the 'black breath' need necessaarily relate ONLY to Nazgul...

to the Edain, it or similiar effects may even pre-date Numenor.

As to this specific saying, it sounds Gondorean rather than the nobler less sing-song Northern / Arnorean...

yet we should also remember that Aragorn and the Dunedain of the North the Rangers all knew of the properties of it, and indeed Elrond as the chief healer could use it better than even Aragorn (the true King) when Frodo ailed after Weathertop.

[Jon S.]

I just had this really weird thought that the last line of the verse can at least theoretically interpreted to mean that a false (lying) king will try to use the athelas prophecy. Even more so if the version we're reading in English is itself a translation of another language (in that case, it may have been more eplicit).

[CAB]

Well Gordis, after rereading this thread and looking up this quote, I think your Earnil theory might be the best option.

But now their art and knowledge were baffled; for there were many sick of a malady that would not be healed; and they called it the Black Shadow, for it came from the Nazgul.

So the people of Gondor at the time of the Lord of the Rings didn't call this sickness the Black Breath (as I was thinking), but rather the Black Shadow. Aragorn uses the term Black Breath in the same chapter as this quote (The Houses of Healing), so this would be an older name, for something he was apparently familiar with. This makes me wonder if the poem didn't originate in the North and make its way to Gondor, as was suggested before. Maybe, maybe not. Either way, I now think it probably wasn't so much a prophesy as just wisdom stored in verse.