What's up with the support for porn and prostitution?

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I kind of 'get' why no one takes drinking seriously as a problem. That usually takes a few friends being killed or hitting bottom.

But hasn't anyone been talking to y'all enough about sexually transmitted disease for you to take any interest in that as a danger? Because it isn't, sadly, something you always get a second chance at. Nice quiet case of chlamydia can mess up having kids, and no one will be doing universal testing for stuff like that, particularly in societies with complete majority at 16.

So, why is it so clearly split along "moral" lines, with no thought about public health? And quaint notions about prostitution and porn being victimless. I just can't believe no one has questioned that.

Can anyone explain it to me?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Well, I think porn is definitely immoral, but I also think that it's not really something that's up to the government to decide. The primary victim is the perpetrator, and IMO, if he does end up hurting someone else, he probably would have anyway.

As regards prostitution, again, I think it is highly immoral, but I support legalisation of it simply because I think that is the best way to control the spread of STDs. It will definitely not go away if you illegalise, it will simply become a back-alley thing, sleazy, and much more unsafe. If it is legalised, then the government can enforce testing for STDs, and ban women or men who have them from practicing prostitution. Of course, there will still be the back-alley illegal whoring, just because it's cheaper, but I don't think you can just sit there without doing anything; enforcing STD testing will decrease the spread of STDs, even if it won't stop it altogether, and you can only enforce STD testing by legalising prostitution.

So, I don't vote for those along "moral" lines, but along the lines of the harm of society.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

So, I don't vote for those along "moral" lines, but along the lines of the harm of society.

Its harm to society is one of the key reasons that it is immoral, so that's pretty much another way of saying the same thing. The harm to society also isn't just STDs, but also has a number of psychological aspects, and those forms of harm also make it immoral. Among other things.

[The Gaffer]

Most of the problems associated with prostitution (including the brutality and exploitation suffered by prostitutes, which I would be most concerned about) could be addressed by legalising it.

But I'd be interested to hear what the public health issues around porn are. I can't think of any.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Most of the problems associated with prostitution (including the brutality and exploitation suffered by prostitutes, which I would be most concerned about) could be addressed by legalising it.

But I'd be interested to hear what the public health issues around porn are. I can't think of any.

Um, it comes from somewhere?

If the porn we're talking about is pictures of naked adult women, posed on lacy sheets, well, the only question is why they're doing that instead of something more...constructive. Natural extroversion doesn't lead most people to a career in that, except if the money is an issue.

That isn't where porn stops, though, is it? People interact, and interact in ways that a cared-for daughter wouldn't choose. Activities that used to be "special order" are increasingly common, the edge is pushed further. The industry relies on a consistant influx of (mostly girls) who meet exaggerated standards of appearance (and get surgery to get there) and have very poor personal boundaries.

And the whole process degrades rapidly. Even strippers often find self-medicating essential to job performance. Hookers almost always. You need to be kind of emotionally distanced from your reality when your reality involves intimate contact with a series of unwashed strangers. The emphasis on testing prostitutes for social diseases makes me laugh. It's the johns who need regulation.

The thing is, just as most woman don't sell eggs and breastmilk, and most men don't sell sperm (despite it being a highly renewable resource), selling intimacy or at least access is a 'choice' made from some really shaky origins. It's intrinsically abusive.

And that doesn't even address this 'youth' issue, which horrifies me.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Well, I think porn is definitely immoral, but I also think that it's not really something that's up to the government to decide. The primary victim is the perpetrator, and IMO, if he does end up hurting someone else, he probably would have anyway.

I don't understand this. Who is "the perpetrator"?

As regards prostitution, again, I think it is highly immoral, but I support legalisation of it simply because I think that is the best way to control the spread of STDs.

The spread of STD's through prostitution? Or the spread generally. The primary spread of STD's has nothing to do with paid sex.

It will definitely not go away if you illegalise, it will simply become a back-alley thing, sleazy, and much more unsafe.

Sounds like the early arguments for legalizing abortion. And pot.

If it is legalised, then the government can enforce testing for STDs, and ban women or men who have them from practicing prostitution.

There's a big lag time on these things. You can test clean at 10 and give out goodies to 20 clients before tomorrow's testing, which will still be too early to detect it. Prostitution, like medicine, is a volume business.

Of course, there will still be the back-alley illegal whoring, just because it's cheaper, but I don't think you can just sit there without doing anything; enforcing STD testing will decrease the spread of STDs, even if it won't stop it altogether, and you can only enforce STD testing by legalising prostitution.

Why? If you're concerned, test everyone. The government gives everyone innoculations, why not testing for STD's? As long as it's your imaginary island.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

And that doesn't even address this 'youth' issue, which horrifies me.

But even if we accept the link between porn and prostitution, those are mostly to do with prostitution, or to do with the "dark side" associated with the porn industry.

Coercing people into making porn is, or ought to be, illegal already.

I've no doubt that there will always be a demand for this stuff, that it does have those associations, and that bad things happen in the course and as a result of its making. I also believe that it segues rather seamlessly into mainstream popular entertainment such as music and advertising.

However, compared with 10 years ago, porn is massively more available, yet we haven't seen a massive increase in sexual crime.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

But even if we accept the link between porn and prostitution, those are mostly to do with prostitution, or to do with the "dark side" associated with the porn industry.

Coercing people into making porn is, or ought to be, illegal already.

I've no doubt that there will always be a demand for this stuff, that it does have those associations, and that bad things happen in the course and as a result of its making. I also believe that it segues rather seamlessly into mainstream popular entertainment such as music and advertising.

However, compared with 10 years ago, porn is massively more available, yet we haven't seen a massive increase in sexual crime.

I disagree. I thiunk we have seen a massive increase in crime, we just don't identify it that way.

I think the impact of porn on young men has been to decrease their ability to make sincere individual connections with women. I think the impact of porn on young women has been to increase their reliance on physical attributes as valuable (or in too many cases, not valuable) which has increased depression and anxiety, as well as things like eating disorders. I think it has added to a materialistic culture that is essentially valueless, which, in turn, increases the susceptibility of the population to simplistic demagogues, of various ideologies. And it extends further into childhood by way of popular culture, hurting our kids younger every year. Find jeans that cover the belly button of a 4 year old girl in a store near you.

But the damage to the participants is not occasional, or incidental. It is endemic to the process.

[The Gaffer]

Well, if you are saying that there is a media-led conspiracy to keep us homogenous, stupid and consumptive, you won't get any arguments from me. But the problem is the attitude, not the porn itself.

Of course, porn very clearly reflects many of these attitudes. Though if you look a bit deeper, you can find all sorts of porn for all sorts of tastes. This is different from advertising, where all women are, almost without exception, good looking and thin.

I would argue that porn has less of an effect on this than MTV or the fascion industry. Discuss.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

I think that MTV is less of a trend leader than it used to be. The bouncing spacewalker was cutting edge, now media is dispersed across the internet, where porn is a more established industry. Its commonness influences the esthetic for everyone.

Niche porn has always been available where porn was. That hasn't changed, and it doesn't serve to expand the general definitions of "beauty." Lactation activists, for example, don't thank the distributors of breastfeeding porn for their support. Sexualizing different styles or areas doesn't make more people safe, quite the reverse. The assumed availability of women that's sponsored by pornography leads to many difficult situations for people (and there are many) who aren't able to understand that porn is fantasy, and not documentary.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I don't understand this. Who is "the perpetrator"?

By 'the perpetrator', I mean the user of pornography. My views on this are very mixed; my first inclination was to say 'illegal', but then I modified that to thinking pornography with real people illegal, but some sort of realistic CGI-thingy would be allowed, then I thought make it legal in general. Now, you've convinced me back to my original 'Illegalise it' stance, so you can see I'm pretty much a pendulum on this issue.

The spread of STD's through prostitution? Or the spread generally. The primary spread of STD's has nothing to do with paid sex.

Not the primary spread, but a significant part of it does. Legalisation and regulation of prostitution would also lessen the abuse and brutality towards prostitutes, as I think the Gaff mentioned.

Sounds like the early arguments for legalizing abortion. And pot.

I'm for legalising marijuana; I'm not even really convinced that there's anything morally wrong with it, let alone that it should be government controlled. As for abortion, there's a huge difference: that is an issue of taking life. There is simply no comparison between taking a human life and prostitution.

Why? If you're concerned, test everyone. The government gives everyone innoculations, why not testing for STD's? As long as it's your imaginary island.

I'm not just thinking of some wild-eyed and idealistic Best Country Ever, I'm thinking of what I believe would be the best way to run a country, such that it could work, practically speaking.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Its harm to society is one of the key reasons that it is immoral

I disagree. I don't believe that right and wrong are determined through some utilitarian standard of "A is right is it benefits, B is wrong if it harms."

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Not the primary spread, but a significant part of it does. Legalisation and regulation of prostitution would also lessen the abuse and brutality towards prostitutes, as I think the Gaff mentioned.

myth. google "prostitution Disease vector" Here's one. http://www.medhelp.org/forums/STD/messages/2915.html
here's another http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/rrbrethinking.htm
Female (at least) prostitution in this country does not significantly increase sexually transmitted diseases, but drug use does.

Legalizing prostitution might improve conditions, but I doubt it. Counties with sexual tourism and legalized prostitution have bigger human rights problems than we do. Human trafficking. Ain't nice.

I'm not just thinking of some wild-eyed and idealistic Best Country Ever, I'm thinking of what I believe would be the best way to run a country, such that it could work, practically speaking.

Whyever not? If intelligent folk don't imagine a better world, how will we get one?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I am imagining a better world. I believe in imagining a better world, it's just a waste of time if it's a world that's so much better it will never happen.

[katya]

Can porn be unhealthy emotionally and dangerous physically? Yes. But you can't make something illegal because of that alone. Might it help protect society? Maybe yes, maybe no. But I'm concerned about the sort of society that sort of thing could lead to. I'll give a couple examples.

There are already efforts to make violent video games illegal or difficult to purchase. They can lead to emotional and physical problems, sure. Do I know anyone who has suffered from it? No, and I hang out with almost exclusively gamers. But hey, there could be, you know, dropping out of school for playing WoW. That happens. So let's make all video games illegal. Right?

And how about those cookies? Kids under the age of say, 16 shouldn't be able to buy them. They are contributing to the obesity epidemic in this country, and they teach kids poor methods of dealing with emotional issues as well. And don't get me started on ice cream!

Illegalizing cookies may seem a little ridiculous, but that's the sort of direction you seem to be pushing society toward. More and more restrictions only lead to just that- more restrictions. I think if we want to build a better society we need to change as people. No, not to forcibly change people, but to change ourselves from the inside.

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

If the porn we're talking about is pictures of naked adult women, posed on lacy sheets, well, the only question is why they're doing that instead of something more...constructive. Natural extroversion doesn't lead most people to a career in that, except if the money is an issue.

That isn't where porn stops, though, is it? People interact, and interact in ways that a cared-for daughter wouldn't choose. Activities that used to be "special order" are increasingly common, the edge is pushed further. The industry relies on a consistant influx of (mostly girls) who meet exaggerated standards of appearance (and get surgery to get there) and have very poor personal boundaries.

This clearly a personal opinion, not a universal truth. Maybe you don't understand it, but there are girls out there who want to and enjoy making porn. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. I don't know where the whole "sex is 'dirty'" myth comes from (ok, well, i can guess), but sex is a natural and beautiful thing. I'm not saying be a slut- I've only ever had one partner and hope it can stay that way, nor am I brave enough to throw any naked lacy sheets pictures into the public, but I can see the attractiveness of the idea, if I happened to committed to embracing that lifestyle.

You need to be kind of emotionally distanced from your reality when your reality involves intimate contact with a series of unwashed strangers.

You have a really good point there, not just about the disease and safety, but emotionally too. I think most porn stars have to deceive themselves, particularly if they want to have a real relationship. They'll say "oh it's just for work, so i/s/he doesn't mind", but you know that's not true. Or, "I just try not to think about the fact that hundreds of old nasty guys have seen me naked". It's just lying to oneself about their own reality, which can't possibly be healthy.

I vote not for more restrictions, but on more real education.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by katya

Can porn be unhealthy emotionally and dangerous physically? Yes. But you can't make something illegal because of that alone. Might it help protect society? Maybe yes, maybe no. But I'm concerned about the sort of society that sort of thing could lead to. I'll give a couple examples.

There are already efforts to make violent video games illegal or difficult to purchase. They can lead to emotional and physical problems, sure. Do I know anyone who has suffered from it? No, and I hang out with almost exclusively gamers. But hey, there could be, you know, dropping out of school for playing WoW. That happens. So let's make all video games illegal. Right?

And how about those cookies? Kids under the age of say, 16 shouldn't be able to buy them. They are contributing to the obesity epidemic in this country, and they teach kids poor methods of dealing with emotional issues as well. And don't get me started on ice cream!

Illegalizing cookies may seem a little ridiculous, but that's the sort of direction you seem to be pushing society toward. More and more restrictions only lead to just that- more restrictions. I think if we want to build a better society we need to change as people. No, not to forcibly change people, but to change ourselves from the inside.

so, civil liberties. The framers (and later, amenders) of the US Constitution have strugged to enumerate which liberties are 'inalienable". This 'make a country' game looks at those lists, kwim? It's interesting. That's one of the reasons I pointed out that many laws were discussed, but nothing about schools. I found that, among people who are mostly students, very interesting.

I have directions I push society. But here I just discuss.

This clearly a personal opinion, not a universal truth. Maybe you don't understand it, but there are girls out there who want to and enjoy making porn. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. I don't know where the whole "sex is 'dirty'" myth comes from (ok, well, i can guess), but sex is a natural and beautiful thing. I'm not saying be a slut- I've only ever had one partner and hope it can stay that way, nor am I brave enough to throw any naked lacy sheets pictures into the public, but I can see the attractiveness of the idea, if I happened to committed to embracing that lifestyle.

You have a really good point there, not just about the disease and safety, but emotionally too. I think most porn stars have to deceive themselves, particularly if they want to have a real relationship. They'll say "oh it's just for work, so i/s/he doesn't mind", but you know that's not true. Or, "I just try not to think about the fact that hundreds of old nasty guys have seen me naked". It's just lying to oneself about their own reality, which can't possibly be healthy.

I vote not for more restrictions, but on more real education.

The bolded part. What is clearly 'opinion' and what truths would I need? I say, if making porn sounds like a 'lifestyle for free-spirits' to you, it means you know relatively little about the working conditions of porn actors. I don't claim to know everything about it myself, thank goodness, but some. Prostitutes and sex workers have discussed their working conditions.Here's a look. http://www.oneangrygirl.net/Life_of_the_Stripper.html
here's another
http://www.walnet.org/csis/groups/sw...tohistory.html

[katya]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

so, civil liberties. The framers (and later, amenders) of the US Constitution have strugged to enumerate which liberties are 'inalienable". This 'make a country' game looks at those lists, kwim? It's interesting. That's one of the reasons I pointed out that many laws were discussed, but nothing about schools. I found that, among people who are mostly students, very interesting.

I have directions I push society. But here I just discuss.

I don't understand. What "make a country" game? What is "kwim"? Schools?

The bolded part. What is clearly 'opinion' and what truths would I need? I say, if making porn sounds like a 'lifestyle for free-spirits' to you, it means you know relatively little about the working conditions of porn actors. I don't claim to know everything about it myself, thank goodness, but some. Prostitutes and sex workers have discussed their working conditions.Here's a look. http://www.oneangrygirl.net/Life_of_the_Stripper.html
here's another
http://www.walnet.org/csis/groups/sw...tohistory.html

Well, saying that girls who were brought up right wouldn't do this or that is an opinion, I think. I do think that there are girls who go into porn because they want to. I'm not saying there aren't a lot who do it for the money, or are forced into it, or something else terrible like that. I'm also not talking about "prostitutes and sex workers" in general, just porn. Basically what I mean is, porn isn't inherently bad, and not all people think it's immoral. Simply pornography, not all the things that can be associated with it (human trafficking, say).

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by katya

I don't understand. What "make a country" game? What is "kwim"? Schools?

Sorry. This thread originated in the "if you had your own country' thread. KWIM is "know what I mean."

Well, saying that girls who were brought up right wouldn't do this or that is an opinion, I think. I do think that there are girls who go into porn because they want to.

What I was trying to do was discuss the content of pornography without violating family-friendly guidelines that apply on this board. I was not defaming sex workers.

I'm not saying there aren't a lot who do it for the money, or are forced into it, or something else terrible like that. I'm also not talking about "prostitutes and sex workers" in general, just porn. Basically what I mean is, porn isn't inherently bad, and not all people think it's immoral. Simply pornography, not all the things that can be associated with it (human trafficking, say).

This is a convenient liberal myth. Statistics on people who do any of these jobs, as jobs (Not Paris Hilton and her poor choice in boyfriends) show that they are almost universally abused before doing it and are abused while doing it.

That's not to say that I'm against sexual activity, or discussion of sexual activity, or such-like. It's just that you have to deal with what is. Cocaine, as a substance, may be swell. As an industry, it's murderous, and in the community, it's devastating, and that has to be a factor.

Now, we'd like to think they're just fun girls expressing themselves. We'd like to think that Linda Lovelace really DID enjoy herself in her filmed activity so much that everything that happened on film...well, so much fun they hated to take a check for it. It's just that the evidence doesn't support that.

[katya]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Sorry. This thread originated in the "if you had your own country' thread. KWIM is "know what I mean."

Oh ok, thanks.

This is a convenient liberal myth. Statistics on people who do any of these jobs, as jobs (Not Paris Hilton and her poor choice in boyfriends) show that they are almost universally abused before doing it and are abused while doing it.

That's not to say that I'm against sexual activity, or discussion of sexual activity, or such-like. It's just that you have to deal with what is. Cocaine, as a substance, may be swell. As an industry, it's murderous, and in the community, it's devastating, and that has to be a factor.

Now, we'd like to think they're just fun girls expressing themselves. We'd like to think that Linda Lovelace really DID enjoy herself in her filmed activity so much that everything that happened on film...well, so much fun they hated to take a check for it. It's just that the evidence doesn't support that.

Just to throw it out there, what would you say to focusing not on making pornography illegal, but rather making it safer? Sure, there's always going to be STDs and such, and abuse and other bad things are going to happen. But it's their choice. People don't become porn stars on accident, and when they do, well, that's another story altogether. What about focusing on education and awareness of the problems associated with the industry, and on making it safer?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

I disagree. I thiunk we have seen a massive increase in crime, we just don't identify it that way.

I think the impact of porn on young men has been to decrease their ability to make sincere individual connections with women. I think the impact of porn on young women has been to increase their reliance on physical attributes as valuable (or in too many cases, not valuable) which has increased depression and anxiety, as well as things like eating disorders. I think it has added to a materialistic culture that is essentially valueless, which, in turn, increases the susceptibility of the population to simplistic demagogues, of various ideologies. And it extends further into childhood by way of popular culture, hurting our kids younger every year. Find jeans that cover the belly button of a 4 year old girl in a store near you.

But the damage to the participants is not occasional, or incidental. It is endemic to the process.

excellent post - hear, hear!!!