On him alone is any charge laid

[ecthelion]

Probably someone discussed it before, please refer me to it if you've seen this question before.

As I was rereading LOTR for the n'th time, I came across Elronds speech: "On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need."

Does Frodo break this promise when he offers Galadriel the ring?

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

save members of the Company and the Council

There's your answer.

[Olmer]

That was a speech designated for an unaware public, and also a crafty way to put all burden solely on Frodo. Elrond perfectly knew that Frodo already bonded with a Ring and won't be able to break his promise to carry the ring till the end, unless the ring itself will decide to change the keeper.
"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care — and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him." (FOTR)
So, in this case Frodo was safe:the decision of the Ring's owner change will never be of his own, and he can offer the Ring to whoever he would wish to.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

There's your answer.

That's wrong, you ignored ...

Originally Posted by ecthelion

... save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need."

[The Gaffer]

Well, Gandalf dead, the ring working its power on others in the Company.. seems pretty grave.

The other aspect to this is his "testing" of Galadriel. Depending on which version of her life you look at, her refusal of the Ring, offered freely, was what allowed her to end her exile, forsake ME and return to Valinor.

So maybe Frodo was acting as an agent of a higher mission in this particular instance.

[Butterbeer]

On him alone is any charge laid

Thank God the West Midlands serious crime squad were not involved in this investigation.


....................

Also - you ignored the rather important difference between 'handling it' and 'offering ownership' of it ...

"nah then missus, nice bit of jewlry this'n - feel the quality o' that - real gold, dat! - yours fer a steal!"

*frodo opens up coat revealing 101 watches*

...................

Olmer: That was a speech designated for an unaware public, and also a crafty way to put all burden solely on Frodo. Elrond perfectly knew that Frodo already bonded with a Ring and won't be able to break his promise to carry the ring till the end, unless the ring itself will decide to change the keeper.
"A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care — and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left him." (FOTR)
So, in this case Frodo was safe:the decision of the Ring's owner change will never be of his own, and he can offer the Ring to whoever he would wish to.

Then, if we agree this, since he does offer it, it would have to be assumed that it was the will of the ring, working through Frodo, that offered itself ...

The question is though, does Galadriel break faith by so seriously considering it - by allowing herself to come to the very crux of being on a knife edge of going one way or the other?

Elrond and Gandalf (and others) will not even entertain the idea of going near that battle of temptation in the first place.

yet the ring and Galadriel together?

[Landroval]

The question is though, does Galadriel break faith by so seriously considering it - by allowing herself to come to the very crux of being on a knife edge of going one way or the other?

I don't think she breaks faith by considering it. Tolkien disavowed that Zimmerman excluded Galadriel's temptation scene, stating that due to this (and others), "practically everything having moral import has vanished from the synopsis". She humbles herself by this choice ("I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel") and Tolkien states in the letters that LotR is a sanctification of the humble.
Furthermore, I don't think she let herself on the knife's edge; Tolkien also states that "Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve" - she wasn't toying around; the mirror scene was the final act in her fight against its influence. As such, "she was pardoned [for rebellion and refusal to return] because of her resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself".

[Butterbeer]

Morning Landroval - hope you are good?

mmm ... an interesting angle then occurs - if, we take it as you say, if she is pre-determined and bears no risk from the the temptation of the ring ... so close ..in her very grasp ...

then is not her 'resistance to the final and overwhelming temptation to take the Ring for herself' - not a sham?

and thus is not her pardon?

it seems to me we cannot have it both ways - either there is 'overwhelming temptation' and therefore a very real threat, or there isn't -

hence there would be a question: did she, at the time it presented itself, allow herself to get too close to the very point of temptation in the first place?

No doubt to my mind she did - nor, either, indeed that she did as you say, succeed in resitance - hence her pardon - else that pardon means little or is nonsensical -

and thus, looked at so, what Tolkien states about morality here can have value-

[Landroval]

I'm fine Bb, thanks for asking

I didn't argue that she was pre-determined (as in predestined) - only that she previously fought against temptation and won on the inside. Admittedly, it is something altogether different to reject the temptation when faced with the ring itself.

Did she allow herself to get too close? I don't think so. What would have been the alternative? What if she knew by (the elven/mirror's) foreknowledge that the offering of Frodo would occur? And even if not, was she supposed to avoid him all the way? Shut him up when he would start talking? Bar him entrance into Lothlorien altogether? What if, instead of her, Frodo would have given the ring anyway to another one (elf, or even Boromir!) - what would that have solved? At least, in this chain of events, Frodo would see what would happen to others when tempted; and perhaps this helped him a lot, when he later faced Boromir, who requested to relieve him of this burden.

[Jon S.]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

"On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need."

I hadn't focused before on the impact of this charge in the context of Frodo waking up to learn Sam had rescued the ring and was still wearing it but it does add to the undertones behind the intensity of Frodo's words to Sam about immediately returning it.

[ecthelion]

So Frodo's offering the ring to Galadriel was a higher power acting? Either the ring itself or the fateful test of Galadriel? Or even both wills coinciding?
Nice thought

[Landroval]

Considering that in the Atrabeth it is stated that:

...the Drama depends on His design and His will for its beginning and continuance, in every detail and moment.

it might just be that the first part of your presupposition is true. I would also add that the ring knew only Sauron as its master and I believe it wouldn't seek Galadriel as a tool for return, since she would most likely keep it to herself (and maybe even come to master it and thus bring about the complete end of Sauron).

[ecthelion]

I'm not so sure about the ring, though.
It seems that the ring tries to get back to its master, but from what G&G co. (Gandalf and Galadriel) say, some other very strong will may successfully master the ring (and lesser wills just get betrayed by it).
So it may be the ring's power (and free will) too.
(Although of course Sauron and even Melkor ultimately played a part ordained by Eru)

[Butterbeer]

So it may be the ring's power (and free will) too.

Interesting, ecthelion -

this, to me, opens up the core of, most of the genuinely interesting debates on here - and those that most of the better read and free-thinking minds on here have been, one way or another, engaged in ...

i look forward to see where this freely develops ...

best, BB

[Landroval]

So it may be the ring's power (and free will) too.

I agree that the ring's power inadvertently led others to be drawn to it - it is stated so clearly in the books and letters; however, I see no new argument to make me rethink my initial position, that the ring would avoid, if possible, Galadariel as a temporary owner. Seeing that the ring was able to "flee" from Gollum, I believe this is all too possible; heck, I even wonder if the ring didn't nudge Galadriel into not accepting it (that is, if we admit the ring can induce other things than possessiveness and fantasies of dominance).

[durinsbane2244]

Originally Posted by ecthelion

Probably someone discussed it before, please refer me to it if you've seen this question before.

As I was rereading LOTR for the n'th time, I came across Elronds speech: "On him alone is any charge laid: neither to cast away the Ring, nor to deliver it to any servant of the Enemy nor indeed to let any handle it, save members of the Company and the Council, and only then in gravest need."

Does Frodo break this promise when he offers Galadriel the ring?

for one thing, it wasn't a promise. it was a statement made by elrond. for another thing, it sounds like a typical, "hey guys, if this whole thing fails...it wasn't me..."

[brownjenkins]

I think Galadriel was trying to entice Frodo into giving her the ring, a situation where he was strongly overmatched and thus not completely responsible, but her conscience won over in the end and she refused.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Landroval

... heck, I even wonder if the ring didn't nudge Galadriel into not accepting it (that is, if we admit the ring can induce other things than possessiveness and fantasies of dominance).

You are furnishing the Ring with traits of an entity, while it's just a very cleverly made an accumulator and transmiter of magic and life force.
All this scary stories of a big bad ...Ring we are hearing from Gandalf, but there are several statements in the text that indicates that Gandalf has had no idea about the real power of the Ring , “It is far more powerful than I ever dared to think at first”.But there is also this, "...you must remember that nine years ago...I still knew little for certain." (FOTR).Still in all this 9 years he has acquired the only bits of information from Minas Tirith's library.Whatever he was talking about the Ring was a mere feed back from the Elves.
The Elves for certain knew about the real abilities of the Ring, because if to think logically, they were making the Rings of Power for themselves, and the forth ring supposed to lock the Rings of Power in the mighty Chain of Power. Sauron was not supposed to be included, he simply invited himself by making a few adjustments to the original design of the rings. The Ring, even with Saurons modifications, was not that powerful as Gandalf and Elrond has tried to accentuate.Sauron the Maya had never been successful in his campaigns even when he was carrying the One Ring on his finger.

Galadriel , the wielder of Nenya also, knew that the Ring without any harm could turn her into the mighty Lord(ess) of Middle-earth by channeling of the whatever left magic to her, to the Chain of Power, but on another hand it could channel the magic from her to Sauron. She was never certain of this, and, probably, this was her the only reason of refusing such impressive token of friendship.

[Landroval]

You are furnishing the Ring with traits of an entity, while it's just a very cleverly made an accumulator and transmiter of magic and life force.

Seeing Gandalf's words:

Originally Posted by The Shadow of the Past, FotR

A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. _It_ may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too. And even so he would never have just forsaken it, or cast it aside. It was not Gollum, Frodo, but the Ring itself that decided things. The Ring left _him_.

it seems that Gandalf is generalizing from what the rings of power are/behave - and, most importantly, he has one himself. He is not out of the loop, he doesn't receive information second-handedly. He would know himself what he is talking about, after having his ring for almost two millennia.

Galadriel , the wielder of Nenya also, knew that the Ring without any harm could turn her into the mighty Lord(ess) of Middle-earth

You're kidding, right?. How could there be no harm in becoming the worst enemy of creation - even if we are talking purely on moral grounds? Do you really see Galadriel as such an amoral person? I believe that is very out of touch with the work, esspecially since in the letters Tolkien admits to christian connections in regards to this character.

[ecthelion]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I even wonder if the ring didn't nudge Galadriel into not accepting it

I don't think that was really the case, because we always see the the ring pulling people to it, and I don't think the ring really cared about who was its owner finally.

Originally Posted by Landroval

She humbles herself by this choice

It seems that the scene is about Galadriel, and her moral choice. I think it's an internal choice, not supposed to be influenced by an outside force, like the power of the ring.

But we don't see Frodo offering anybody else the ring, So maybe it was not really his choice to offer it.
But I don't think he would have offered it even to Galadriel after the episode with Boromir. If that scene would have come before, would we still have the scene with Galadriel? I wonder...