Proverbs and Sayings

[Mari]

I had a class on different sayings in different countries and I was surprised at how much the sayings were different but still the same. It seems that all the way back in history our ancestors had the same kinds of wisdoms, but adapted to their own environment.
For example:
Even a monkey can fall from a tree (Taiwan, Japan)
Even the tusk of an elephant can be broken (Indonesia or Thailand)
Even the best knitter may have a flaw in her knitting (The Netherlands)
All meaning that everybody makes mistakes.

Anyway, I wanted to see if there were more proverbs and sayings that differ but are the same, so I started this thread. I'll just contribute a few Dutch proverbs and let's see if we can find some more! (Sorry if I mixed up the countries I mentioned above, but hey, zelfs de beste breister laat wel eens een steek vallen nietwaar? for translation see the aforementioned Dutch proverb )

So here are a few Dutch proverbs etc.:

Saying: Zoeken naar een naald in een hooiberg
In English: searching for a needle in the haystack
Meaning: trying to do something impossible

Saying: Spreken is zilver, zwijgen is goud
In English: Speaking is silver, silence is gold
Meaning: there are times when it is best to just shut up.

Saying: Niet geschoten is altijd mis
In English: When you don't shoot you'll always miss
Meaning: if you don't try something, you'll never know whether you can do it or not or if you like it or not

Saying: Met de hoed in de hand komt men door het ganse land
In English: With your hat in your hand you can travel through all of the land
Meaning: With politeness you can open doors that might otherwise stay closed. The point being that you can gain a lot by just bing polite.

Saying: Voor niets gaat de zon op
In English: The sun rises for free
Meaning: You get nothing for free in life, except off course the rising of the sun.

Well, there are many more proverbs off course, but let's just start with these.
I hope there will be some interesting results/differences/similarities/etc.

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by Mari

I wanted to see if there were more proverbs and sayings that differ but are the same, so I started this thread.

Are you Dutch by any chance Mari?

Foreign proverbs are interesting, especially those who "differ but mean the same thing". Like in your example the Japanese use a monkey in their proverb whereas the Indonesians use an elefant to say the same thing.

However there are also many proverbs in several languages that include exactly the same word. Some of the Dutch proverbs you listed belong to tihs category:

A needle in a haystack; een naald in een hooiberg (Dutch); en nål i en höstack (Swedish). In all these languages, the words "needle" and "haystack" are used. The proverb is just translated and isn't unique to that language.

Also:
Spreken is zilver, zwijgen is goud (Dutch); tala är silver, tiga är guld (Swedish)
The English equivalent would be: Talk is cheap, silence is golden (they left out the silver there)

One swallow doesn't make a summer; en svala gör ingen sommar (Swedish); une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps (French).
In France and I think in some other languages too, the swallow doesn't make a spring (printemps).

[Anglorfin]

I'm a big collector of proverbs. I keep a little leather notebook in jacket at all times and whenever I hear something I feel should be remembered I write it down. As a hobby I study philosophy with a special interest in Eastern philosophy; which is obviously very heavy with proverbs.

Anyways I found a site with a lot of random proverbs and stuff. Here are some that stood out as having the same meaning as another one I've heard before . . .

-"Drop by drop fills the tub." - A French proverb similar to the one I remember; "Slow and steady wins the race."
-"In the fields of observation, chance favors only the prepared
mind." (Pasteur) - Very similar to many Eastern sayings I have read. Especially those by any of the authors about combat such as Sun Tzu, Miyamoto Musashi or Yagyu Munenori.
-"A narrow mind has a broad tongue." - Arabian proverb that it seems nobody can get away from. Stupid people just won't shut up.
-"Talk does not cook rice." - Chinese proverb with the same meaning as, "Actions are stronger than words." I forget exactly who said that but it sounds biblical.
-"Vegetables of one's own raising are not relished --- those from
other's gardens are the best." - Chinese proverb that reminds me of; "The grass is always greener on the other side."

Some other proverbs that I like. Let's see if there are any similar translations . . .

-"Think not those faithful who praise all thy words and actions,
but those who kindly reprove thy faults." (Socrates)
-"If a man could have half his wishes, he would double his
troubles." (Benjamin Franklin)
-"Architects plant bushes. Doctors bury their mistakes." (Frank Lloyd Wright) - I like this one a lot. It's sort of humorous but you know right away that FLR detests the covering up of problems not solved. I wonder who can find another proverb with similar meaning. Something along the lines of masking unresolved issues or dressing something up in order to take attention away from a flaw.
-"Fear accompanies the possibility of death. Calm heralds its certainty." (Ka D'Argo) - Who said TV characters can't have totally badass quotes? Reminds me very much of a passage from the Warrior's Code by Daidoji Yuzan.

Some Confucian proverbs. Many are well known in their truest form or else restated by other famous figures during specific meaningful points in history. Many Confucian proverbs even may not have been said by Confucius, which only goes to show his profound impact that his actual advice did have.

-"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - Attributed to Confucius but I know of many other versions said by others. I'm fairly certain Da Vinci or Galileo or some other Renaissance man said it as well.
-"A man who has committed a mistake and doesn't correct it is committing another mistake." - Something that I know I've heard elsewhere in other forms.
-"A small-minded man looks at the sky through a reed." (Anonymous) - Meaning; An ignorant person does not see the whole picture but only what he wants to see.

I do a lot of reading in Eastern philosophy. Especially those concerning Zen or the martial arts. Plus spiritually speaking my views are very close to those of Taoism. So here are some excerpts from the Art of War for those who haven't read it. I'd write a lot more from different sources but I'm afraid this post will be too long already. Plus I am currently in a read through of the Art of War and I don't want to confuse myself as to who said what.

-"One committed to dying can be slain." (Sun Tzu) - One of my favorite passages from the Art of War. Many people think of Chinese warriors or Samurai as slightly suicidal, but Sun Tzu warns that being prepared to die is not the same as expecting to die.
-"One committed to living can be captured." (Sun Tzu) - On the other hand, capture should be avoided especially for officers. Death is the preferable route here and why armies must still be prepared to die.
-"If those who draw water are the ones to drink first, your enemy is thirsty." - Not really a popular quote but still one of my favorites. It has a long to do with observation and knowing what to look for.
-"Thus one who excels at employing the military subjugates the enemy forces without engaging in battle .... Thus his weapons will not become dull and the gains can be preserved." (Sun Tzu) - Confidence is important to any undertaking. This is just one of the times where it appears in the Art of War. Similar passages hold the same meaning; that you should know you will win before you even attack. Another application of this comes from Miyamoto Musashi's idea of "no-sword." Or that you attain a greater victory by besting an adversary without drawing your sword.

Lastly here's my absolute favorite quote from the Tao te Ching . . .

The living are soft and yielding;
the dead are rigid and stiff.
Living plants are flexible and tender;
the dead are brittle and dry.

The stiff, the hard, and the brittle;
are the disciple of death.
Those who are soft and yielding;
are the disciples of life.

The warrior who is inflexible;
condemns himself to death.
And the tree is easily broken;
whichever refuses to yield.

Thus the hard and the brittle will surely fall.
The soft and supple will overcome.

Bruce Lee's philosophy draws heaving from Taoism. While Zen Buddhism and other Eastern religions are essentially very alike--almost impossible to tell the difference for the most part--you can hear the definite Taoist influence of "go with the flow" and his whole famous analogy about water.

[Mari]

Wow I didn't expect such interesting replies just like that
When reading Anglorfins post I am ashamed to have to admit I have never read the art of war and that I don't completely understand all your quotes (sorry!!!) but there are also a lot of things I do get. It is interesting that the Renaissance brought forth wisdoms similar to wisdoms in the East.
By the way, the "real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." is also mentioned by the same philosopher who said "I think therefore I am" but I keep forgetting his name.

Also I did know that there were several similar Dutch and English proverbs that were practically the same, but I didn't know this was also true compared with other languages. Interesting.
I wonder why in some languages summer has been replaced with spring... But come to think if it: in the Netherlands (yep I am very Dutch, can't help it myself either ) it might be spring as well... (but truth to be told I am horrible when it comes to remembering proverbs and stuff allthough I do find them very interesting)
I thought of a few others (I really am into this thread now )

De beste zeelui staan aan wal
The best sailors are standing on dry land
it is easy to comment on others from the sidelines. I guess this resembles the biblical proverb: before pointing at the small splinter in the eyes of another, remove the board in your own eye first. (this one makes so much more sense in Dutch :s)

Wie een kuil graaft voor een ander valt er zelf in
Those who dig a hole to trap another will fall in the hole themselves.
guess there is no explanation necessary here.

[Earniel]

I remember discussing once with a mooter the proverb 'oude koeien uit de sloot halen' (lit: to drag old cows out of the ditch/water) and its variations and meanings. Some proverbs do sound very funny when you pick them apart. You do wonder how people come up with them.

Originally Posted by Jonathan

One swallow doesn't make a summer; en svala gör ingen sommar (Swedish); une hirondelle ne fait pas le printemps (French).
In France and I think in some other languages too, the swallow doesn't make a spring (printemps).

Een zwaluw maakt nog geen lente. (Dutch)

Identical in Dutch too. Except for the slight variation in summer/spring, so ours is probably influenced by its French counterpart.

Originally Posted by Mari

De beste zeelui staan aan wal
The best sailors are standing on dry land

There's another similar one: De beste paarden staan op stal. (The best horses are in the stable)

[Nurvingiel]

I've got a good one for you. My Dad was on a panel conducting some interviews, and they were discussing why you can't always complete a project faster by adding more people to it. The person being interviewed said, "Nine women and one month doesn't make a baby."

[sun-star]

I love proverbs

Originally Posted by Mari

Saying: Met de hoed in de hand komt men door het ganse land
In English: With your hat in your hand you can travel through all of the land
Meaning: With politeness you can open doors that might otherwise stay closed. The point being that you can gain a lot by just bing polite.

An English equivalent in meaning, though not in image, is "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

Originally Posted by Anglorfin

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - Attributed to Confucius but I know of many other versions said by others. I'm fairly certain Da Vinci or Galileo or some other Renaissance man said it as well.

There's a version attributed to Socrates which goes "Wisest is he who knows he does not know".

Originally Posted by Anglorfin

"Talk does not cook rice." - Chinese proverb with the same meaning as, "Actions are stronger than words."

That's a good one! Another equivalent in English is "Fine words butter no parsnips", which is a particular favourite of mine.

[Anglorfin]

Here's a nice Zen saying that I like.

"Water which is too pure has no fish." (Ts'ai Ken T'an) - Reminds me of others. Possibly, "Too much of something is not a good thing." I know there's a better synonym though.


I wish I was a bigger reader of Zen Koans. If I had a book I'd look through it and find some good ones. Truly Zen proverbs are almost contradictory in nature, dealing very much with yin and yang like the proverb above. No other collection of sayings deals with so many shades of grey or what ifs. To me the meanings are always profoundly deep. Does anybody have any good knowledge about Zen Buddhism and the Zen Koans or the sayings of Buddha?

"The mind that does not understand is the Buddha. There is no other...." - Ma-Tsu

Oooh here's a really good saying I just found . . .

"God has no religion." - Mahatma Gandhi.

[Anglorfin]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I've got a good one for you. My Dad was on a panel conducting some interviews, and they were discussing why you can't always complete a project faster by adding more people to it. The person being interviewed said, "Nine women and one month doesn't make a baby."

That kinda reminds me of, "Too many cooks spoil the soup."

[Mari]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I've got a good one for you. My Dad was on a panel conducting some interviews, and they were discussing why you can't always complete a project faster by adding more people to it. The person being interviewed said, "Nine women and one month doesn't make a baby."

I like that one, it's funny

Originally Posted by sun-star

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mari
Saying: Met de hoed in de hand komt men door het ganse land
In English: With your hat in your hand you can travel through all of the land
Meaning: With politeness you can open doors that might otherwise stay closed. The point being that you can gain a lot by just bing polite.


An English equivalent in meaning, though not in image, is "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".

We also have that one in Dutch: Vliegen met stroop vangen.

@ Anglorfin: I have this little book called Japanese wisdom and allthough it is translated to Dutch, I'll try to translate some to English for you:
The vicinity leers at you, the distance motions
The world smiles, from all sides
But still the hart will never quench it's thirst
if it can not constrain itself with iron chains

Even a road of a thousand steps starts with the first step

I don't know if you know this koan, but it is one of the very few I can remember from my Zen-study: clapping with one hand
And then there are a lot of haiku and the sorts:
an old pond
a frog leaps
the sound of water (or something like that, it is not in the original count)

haha, guess I know more small pieces of wisdom than I thought
I wonder how proverbs like "the best horses are in the stable" came into excistence... when thinking about it, I would think you would like to show off with your wonderful horse should you have one. And what's with the cow in the ditch anyway? I never quite got that.
There are two involving animals I do like though, one because it reminds me of Tom and Jerry and the other because it equals people to sheep:

Als de kat van huis is dansen de muizen (op tafel)
When the cat leaves the house the mice are dancing (on the table)
If there is no supervision, there is no telling what the (usually) children will do.

Als er 1 schaap over de dam is volgen er meer
When 1 sheep jumps over the fence, more will follow him
If one person does something, more person will follow his lead

[Anglorfin]

I think "to drag old cows out of a ditch" means you shouldn't exert yourself for a lost cause. Or the effort isn't worth the reward or something.

Something similar could be, "Let a sleeping dog lie."

[sun-star]

Originally Posted by Mari

Als de kat van huis is dansen de muizen (op tafel)
When the cat leaves the house the mice are dancing (on the table)
If there is no supervision, there is no telling what the (usually) children will do.

We have that in English too: when the cat's away, the mice will play. You're right, it does sound like Tom and Jerry

[Mari]

Originally Posted by Anglorfin

I think "to drag old cows out of a ditch" means you shouldn't exert yourself for a lost cause. Or the effort isn't worth the reward or something.

Actually it means that you shouldn't bring up things that are over and done (mostly negative things), but why you should just let the poor cow drown... what has it ever done to me? I meant that I didn't get the more literal part of the proverb.
Come to think of it, the meaning of this proverb probably follows the meaning of letting the sleeping dog lie in which case the problem isn't yet over and done.
Speaking of sleeping dogs: Harry Potter 1 anyone?

[Anglorfin]

Don't know why I didn't pick up on this sooner. But "I think therefore I am" is Descartes' most famous saying. And of course he was undoubtedly influenced by the Greek thinkers. Not a big fan of his though. There's too much religion in his work. In fact I remember writing a paper in high school (a Catholic high school) bashing his work and basically stating why his logic was flawed. I got an A.

[Rían]

I've always loved this subject! I worked among people from many different countries at one point in my life, and I loved collecting their sayings.

[Mari]

Originally Posted by Anglorfin

Don't know why I didn't pick up on this sooner. But "I think therefore I am" is Descartes' most famous saying. And of course he was undoubtedly influenced by the Greek thinkers. Not a big fan of his though. There's too much religion in his work. In fact I remember writing a paper in high school (a Catholic high school) bashing his work and basically stating why his logic was flawed. I got an A.

Off course! Descarte!!! Why did I ever forget about that guy!? In an earlier post when we referred to him I just couldn't remember his name or wat it was he said exactly. I had to study him for an exam, but I am sure I didn't get an A
Well done Anglorfin!

By the way, does "a rolling stone gathers no moss" fall in the category proverbs and/or sayings? I've heard it quite often recently, but I know no Dutch counterpart (allthough there probably is).

Would I have to be very ashamed of myself if I were to admit that I don't exactly know the difference between a proverb and saying? If so, I'll just won't admit it

[Anglorfin]

Originally Posted by Mari

By the way, does "a rolling stone gathers no moss" fall in the category proverbs and/or sayings? I've heard it quite often recently, but I know no Dutch counterpart (allthough there probably is).

Would I have to be very ashamed of myself if I were to admit that I don't exactly know the difference between a proverb and saying? If so, I'll just won't admit it

Me neither. They're loosely the same thing. I guess if you wanted to be strict about it people would say that proverbs are more profound. A saying is more like an old-wive's warning maybe. Whatever though, because after all this thread is named "Proverbs and Sayings."

And yeah 'a rolling stone gathers no moss' is a good one. Can't think of another one like it right now either.

[Count Comfect]

Originally Posted by Mari

Actually it means that you shouldn't bring up things that are over and done (mostly negative things), but why you should just let the poor cow drown... what has it ever done to me? I meant that I didn't get the more literal part of the proverb. )

In English, that's "don't beat a dead horse."

Don't count your chickens until they are hatched is one my favorites, because of a James Thurber story in which he alters it to "don't count your boobies until they are hatched," a booby-hatch being a mental hospital...and a booby ALSO a type of bird...

[Mari]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

In English, that's "don't beat a dead horse."

Don't count your chickens until they are hatched is one my favorites, because of a James Thurber story in which he alters it to "don't count your boobies until they are hatched," a booby-hatch being a mental hospital...and a booby ALSO a type of bird...

Cool, I didn't know
Who is James Thurber? (or was...)
and is "don't count your chickens before they are hatched" the same as "don't count the hides before you shot the bear"? Or am I confusing 2 languages at the moment?
Which makes me think: are there big differences in proverbs and sayings between America and Great Brittain, seen as that their histories became quite different at a certain point...
I ask a lot of questions... sorry. Allthough, we live to learn, right?

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by Mari

Cool, I didn't know
Who is James Thurber? (or was...)
and is "don't count your chickens before they are hatched" the same as "don't count the hides before you shot the bear"? Or am I confusing 2 languages at the moment?
Which makes me think: are there big differences in proverbs and sayings between America and Great Brittain, seen as that their histories became quite different at a certain point...
I ask a lot of questions... sorry. Allthough, we live to learn, right?

"Ikke selg skinnet før bjørnen er skutt" - "don't sell the hide before the bear is shot" - is the Norwegian version and means the same thing as both of those sayings, at least.