muslims PART 2

[Spock]

ok, go to it.

[Radagast The Brown]

How widespread and successful was this strategy? And again, I'm curious what your source on this is. I've always been taught that the anti-Semitism came from the German people wanting a scapegoat for their misfortune.

The Jews were better off than most Germans economically, because they had far better jobs and great mathematical skills. They were a source of resentment because of their success, when many Aryan Germans were in suffering. Hitler leveraged off of this natural resentment to persecute the Jews and turn anger into anti-Semitism. I've never heard the claim that the anti-Semitism was because of Christianity in any of the history studies I've had so far.

Lief, the Jews weren't more successful. That's what anti-semitic said back then, even though most Jews were poor at the time just like most other Germans, in order to increase the support in Hitler and in anti semitism.

About the reason for the hatred: I think it obviously has something to do with the "old" anti-semitism, from centuries ago. But now it was based more on "science" than "oh, no! the jews murdered Jesus! Let's kill them". (I think that officially, though, the Pope instructed not to murder or kill jews - but not to treat them equally) I don't really think Christinaity can be blamed.
On the other hand, the Pope never officially condemned Hitler's actions; I'm sure some lives could be saved in Catholic Poland had he said to save Jews.


About Islam: I read in an encyclopedia how it spread so fast, and they say that there wasn't a strong military force in the remnants of the Roman Empire, the old religions in the conquered lands were weak, and that the treatment the conquered people got was rather tolerant. Of course Jews or Chrisitans weren't treated equally to muslims, but neither did Jews in Europe. But the lives of Jews under Muslim reign were much better than the lives they had in Christian Europe at the time. (Especially during the crusades - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...d_the_Crusades)

[Grey_Wolf]

Muslim men have enormous difficulty in conforming to the customs of the country to which they move.

We have noticed this in Sweden where the men of the family are extremely obsessive of the daughters to the point of murdering them if they fall in love with a Swedish boy. Or if the daughters do not conform with the established customs of marrying the man which the family has decided they should marry and instead want go it alone and live like a Swede the family murder them for that reason.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

...... in Sweden where the men of the family are extremely obsessive of the daughters to the point of murdering them if they fall in love with a Swedish boy. Or if the daughters do not conform with the established customs of marrying the man .......and instead want go it alone and live like a Swede the family murder them for that reason.

another excellent example of the religion of tolerance and peace.

sincere thanks for that GW.

[Insidious Rex]

That happens on such a scale in Sweden as to be useful for anti-muslim propaganda?

[Lief Erikson]

I'll respond to you soon, Radagast. Just going to do some research, first.

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

Muslim men have enormous difficulty in conforming to the customs of the country to which they move.

We have noticed this in Sweden where the men of the family are extremely obsessive of the daughters to the point of murdering them if they fall in love with a Swedish boy. Or if the daughters do not conform with the established customs of marrying the man which the family has decided they should marry and instead want go it alone and live like a Swede the family murder them for that reason.

I know that Islam and Sharia Law have traditionally dictated a very submissive role for women, though many more liberal Muslims of modern times are doing away with such restrictions. Sharia Law probably is a factor.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Spock

another excellent example of the religion of tolerance and peace.

sincere thanks for that GW.

You're welcome, Spock.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

That happens on such a scale in Sweden as to be useful for anti-muslim propaganda?

Are you saying GW used it that way? I sure hope not! To me, it looked like an informative and on-topic observation of facts.

Marriage customs/practices would be interesting to discuss. In Judaism, from what I understand, women had the right of refusal, which was VERY counter-culture in ancient times. I don't think Muslim women have that right under their scriptures, do they?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

How about the Klu Klux Klan? A organization with all kinds of ties to protestant evangelicalism and arguably one of the pioneers of terrorism as we know it today?

You'd have to present some pretty good arguments and citations for me to believe that it's one of the pioneers of modern terrorism, though I do consider it to be a form of terrorism. I doubt very highly that Muslim terrorists have borrowed from their example.

However, I agree that the Ku Klux Klan is a very valid example of evil practiced by Christians.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Are you saying GW used it that way? I sure hope not! To me, it looked like an informative and on-topic observation of facts.

I dont think it was he who used it as pot-shot propaganda thanks.

And my question stands as legitimate. How often are swedish muslims killing their daughters? Willy nilly as this would suggest? Or is it an unusual case? Im curious.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

How about the Klu Klux Klan? A organization with all kinds of ties to protestant evangelicalism and arguably one of the pioneers of terrorism as we know it today?

Well by way of explanation; the Klan was initially a beneficial organization, albeit with the desire to keep the races separate; it did many good works......sort of like Hamas today

[Lief Erikson]

Yes, I'm not saying the Klan is all bad either. It certainly has been responsible for horrible acts of terrorism, though.

[Spock]

Well, terrorism of basically one race as opposed to the modern day useage of the term terrorist who threatens all Americans. A fine point but one distinction that should be made.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

I dont think it was he who used it as pot-shot propaganda thanks.

Just wanted to make sure.

I think another valid question to throw in the pot would be this: what makes a person a Muslim?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Spock

Well, terrorism of basically one race as opposed to the modern day useage of the term terrorist who threatens all Americans. A fine point but one distinction that should be made.

Not just all Americans- all the West, and many of them have declared religious war with all Muslims also who aren't fundamentalist. That's probably a big part of the reason for this recent blast in Pakistan, and that attack in Jordan, and these attacks that have occurred in Egypt, and of course it's one reason behind the violence in Iraq.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Spock

Well, terrorism of basically one race as opposed to the modern day useage of the term terrorist who threatens all Americans. A fine point but one distinction that should be made.

What exactly do you mean, 'terrorism of one race'? Directed towards, or instigated by? If the former, then I don't think it's true to say it's terrorism of one race.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Just wanted to make sure.

I think another valid question to throw in the pot would be this: what makes a person a Muslim?

I think there are five pillars of Islam that Muslims are supposed to adhere to. Alms giving is one. A pilgrimage to Mecca is another (if physically capable). Prayer, I think five times a day, was a third. *Looks them up to find out the other two.* Fasting is the fourth, and the fifth is belief that God is One and Mohammed is his final prophet.

I don't know if it goes beyond that at all. According to this website, these are the "foundation of Muslim life."

Here's a relevant quote:

Originally Posted by Islam 101

"There is none worthy of worship except God and Muhammad is the messenger of God." This declaration of faith is called the Shahadah, a simple formula that all the faithful pronounce. The significance of this declaration is the belief that the only purpose of life is to serve and obey God, and this is achieved through the teachings and practices of the Last Prophet, Muhammad.

Perhaps Serenoli will have comments to add to this, if she is still around.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

I dont think it was he who used it as pot-shot propaganda thanks.

And my question stands as legitimate. How often are swedish muslims killing their daughters? Willy nilly as this would suggest? Or is it an unusual case? Im curious.

Very often. There's a great number of ignored cases (defined as regular murders, but in fact are so-called honour-related ones.)

The whole concept of the family deciding things in this manner is very much an ongoing occurence.

It's the ignoring of it or nonchalant dismissal of this occurence that I object against.

And, Lief, my point is that although there are moderate muslims in this day and age, the basic way of thinking has not disappeared even in them.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Spock

Well by way of explanation; the Klan was initially a beneficial organization, albeit with the desire to keep the races separate; it did many good works......sort of like Hamas today

Originally Posted by Lief Ericson

Yes, I'm not saying the Klan is all bad either.

I - I'm sorry, did you two just say that the Ku Klux Klan was beneficial, not all that bad, and did many good works?

And how, exactly, is terrorism any less terrifying or destructive if and when it is "against a race" as opposed to "against Americans" - are african american people not American? They are. So, are you saying that only as long as terrorism is religiously based, and only comes from a muslim country or organisation, can it be technically classified as terrorism? Sorry guys, you have got it ALL wrong, both of you. A terrorist act can and is often american against american, too, irregardless or because of religion, or irregardless or because of race, or sexual orientation, or political affiliation, the list goes on. Terrorism is terrorism, it does not make one damn bit of difference if it comes from a place of spiritual hatred or racial hatred, or just plain old irrational, yet organised hatred.

But the Ku Klux Klan comments - *shakes head, incredulous* So tell me, what are these great benefits and good deeds the Ku Klux Klan have done for the good citizens of the United States of America? Aside from terrorizing an entire racial group of american citizens, on their own home soil, for over one hundred years, right up to the present moment? Do you even have any idea what it is the Klan actually is, or what they stand for, or how they begun? Or how many families they destroyed, how many people they tortured to death, burned alive & lynched and raped, etcetra and so on? It surprises me that some people may just not be aware. I gave you guys a couple links right here so you can read up on it; I'd try to find more but this little laptop I'm on is kind of time-consuming to navigate back & forth between pages. It already took me like half an hour just to compose this post! So anyway -

http://www.kkk.com/

Once America's preeminent terrorist organization, the Ku Klux Klan today is a fragmented and amorphous collection of independent groups and individuals, constantly squabbling over diminishing memberships and limited resources. Passed over by most young white supremacists, who consider Klansmen to be ineffectual and faintly ridiculous old-timers, the group presents far less of a threat to public order than at any time in the past century. Despite its dwindling influence, however, the Klan continues to be a specter that haunts the American psyche and the sight of a flaming cross can still inspire both horror and terror.

~ from the ADL Law Enforcement Agency Resource Network
http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/KKK....cked=4&item=18

[Lief Erikson]

You're misinterpreting me and Spock I think, Lotesse.

I did not say they're "not all that bad." The acts of terrorism are inexcusable. I said that I'm not arguing they're "all bad," which means I'm leaving room for the possibility they've done some good as well (My research of the Klan, unfortunately, hasn't expanded beyond their violence and rise to power and influence, so I haven't studied beneficial aspects of the Klan). I personally suspect Spock is right. Often people will do both good and bad. Christopher Columbus would be one example. He discovered America, which pleases me greatly , but he horribly abused natives, which was simply evil. Often life is a mix. Everyone does some bad in their lives, some more than others, but I doubt that anyone has existed who has done no good. And I suspect Spock is right about the Klan having done some good too- just as Hamas has.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And how, exactly, is terrorism any less terrifying or destructive if and when it is "against a race" as opposed to "against Americans" - are african american people not American? They are.

I would prefer it if Muslim extremists viewed just me as evil, than if they viewed all the world as evil. It would be better that way. In the same way, if the terrorists view just African Americans as evil, I'd prefer it if they did that rather than view everyone who disagrees with their ideology as evil. They're willing to kill more people and do more damage the way things currently stand. It's a worse philosophy. The other is horrible as well. If it's just one murder, that's horrible. Yet if it's several million murders, that's an even more dangerous philosophy. And if it's several billion murders, that's an even more dangerous philosophy. Though they're all evil.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

So, are you saying that only as long as terrorism is religiously based, and only comes from a muslim country or organisation, can it be technically classified as terrorism?

No way. The Christian Ku Klux Klan is a terrorist organization, and it draws on the Bible also to support its ideology. I've studied their racist arguments that try to say the Bible supports racism a bit myself, and it's very sad and sickening. And I hate the slurs the Klan has made against Martin Luther King Jr. It's all so sickening.