Quebec

Okay, like I said (or tried to say, with my poor français) in the "annoying language" thread, I think I'll start a thread about the issue of Quebec separation, in English so it's easier for me to communicate my ideas...

There are obviously positives and negatives to consider with separation. Some of the current major barriers between Canada and Quebec:

- Language. Duh... the rest of Canada IS English-dominated, and especially here in the West where I live, Francophones are such a minority that they aren't even the "second-place" demographic - I'm not sure about the stats but I think in Calgary, where I live, French is actually the third-most-used language in the household behind English and Chinese, I believe it is. I'm pretty sure this is similar in Vancouver as well.

- Culture and tradition. Obviously, language is tied into this... I'm not too knowledgeable on this aspect so you guys will have to fill me in.

- Past history. Yes, technically Quebec was a "prize territory" won by the English in war... I'm also aware of how in the First World War, the French living in Quebec were basically forced to fight for the English when mandatory enlistment was laid down, or so I'm aware.

However, one thing though, Quebeckers. A good deal of the rest of Canada does care about you as a whole even though we may not necessarily understand you. It is that lack of understanding which leads to the government proposing policy after policy, bill after bill, everything that it's trying completely flopping out.

And we STILL haven't gotten you to sign the Constitution.

Cons:

- The "minority within a minority" - the Anglos living in Quebec. This is beginning to seem like a "Russian egg" scenario, where if Quebec separates because it's the minority in all of Canada, then you have all the Anglophones in Quebec becoming the distressed minority. I am especially referring to English-speaking students at institutes such as McGill that originate from all over the country, especially here in the West where if you want to go to a big-name university, you either go east or you go to the States.

- On the same token, you have the Francophones that live in English-dominated Canada.

- The idea that if Quebec separates, Canada is only willing to give up the land of the former "Lower Canada" which Quebec started with, and not all the territory at the North, not only because of the land but also because of the Natives there that wish to remain a part of Canada. However, it's obvious Quebec will never accept this since the provincial economy will be totally crippled without hydro power around.

- The Maritime provinces are simply dead if Quebec is around cutting them off territorially from the rest of Canada. They already have the huge unemployment problem due to fishing... and now transportation of goods from the rest of Canada is cut off, they basically have to rely on the north-east United States and shipping from Europe through Halifax. In the end, it's more likely they'll become part of the United States.

- Am I the only one who's noticed that the vast majority of Canadian prime ministers this past century were from Quebec?

And by the way, us here in the West do share a lot in common with you in Quebec - as in, we think Ontario has way too much consolidated power... and if Quebec leaves, then the democracy is basically finished, because the federal government will revolve entirely around political party popularity in Ontario alone.

Hmm... I'd like to hear some feedback before I continue...

I've never heard of the Quebec separation before. Give me some information so I can give you feedback.

Looks like we're going to rock and roll some more! First abortion, then nukes and evolution and now this. Poor juntel must be getting tired! (Don't know exactly which side he's on, but I'm sure he'll have a comment or two. )

I think that Quebec separating from the rest of Canada would be a bad idea economically. Residents of Quebec would likely see their properites devalued, more companies leave (ie. more than have already left since the language laws came in), etc. I couldn't imagine voting for separation under those circumstances. (That's entirely rhetorical. I'm not a citizen and don't have the right to vote here. Does anyone else find that ironic: I'd have to be a citizen to have a chance to vote myself out...)

You also hear very little talk about the possibilities of civil war if Quebec would separate. I think a lot of people would like to brush that thought aside, but for me, anyway, it's not so easy. I don't think South Carolina and the other southern states were thinking of starting a civil war when they seceded from the Union, and yet that's what came of it. Bloodiest war in US history. And before anyone tries to arue the South left over slavery, that's not it at all. It was over States' Rights, that is the division of power between the states and the federal government (sound familiar?). The partition issue also has echoes in West Virginia splitting off from Virginia when the latter seceded, because the western counties didn't want to leave the Union.

I think that many separatist politicians are too willing to downplay the risks of separation to advance their political agendas. (What me cynical? Noooooo.)

I also have trouble understanding why all of Canada is so hesitant to grant "distinct society" status to Quebec. If the same latitude were granted to all the provinces at the same time, I think this compromise would work. Quebec would be getting more latitude from the federal government to run its own affairs and the other provinces would get the same powers as well, so they couldn't complain that Quebec is always getting special consideration.

If seperation occured (which I don't think will happen anyways), I don't think "roads of communications" would be cut off! The roads are still there.
The idea behind Levesque's old sovereignty-association was of a friendly partnership between canada and quebec. Of course, that was IF canada accepted that friendly partnership.

Please note that this Constitution wasn't even signed when a non-separatist government was leading quebec. It could have happened with the MeechLakeAccord (MLA), but we discussed that elsewhere)...

Quebec isn't trying to take english out of itself. That would be plain suicide! We live in america. English education is mandatory early from primary school well into the end of high school in french schools (as french is in english schools). Provincial laws and debate in the Assemblée Nationale are given out in english on demand. Etc... There are some exagerations made by zealots, but they are not the majority...

What most english in Quebec, I feel (and I can be wrong about that), are the good old days of the 1950's and before that when the english minority in quebec had the economic control of the majority of french quebec; when walking in montreal what one would see is an almost all english commerce... seemingly of course.
What a lot of french of Quebec a afraid of (and which is a lot unjustified in my opinion) is the comming back, ultimately, to this kind of situation of these "good ol' days" of anglo domination...

So, fear and nostalgia, and a lot of such emotional obstacles, are yet in the way for mutual comprehension.

The Anglo domination of Quebec's economy did cause the only internal terrorist crisis in Canada's history...

The problem with "distinct society" that we have - us Westerners especially - is that we think we're the "other" minority. You see, Ontario neglects us as well, but they're giving you special treatment. That's really the logic behind the Western right-wing policies regarding Quebec. I'm not a full-out supporter of these but I do agree with the principles to an extent.

And the problem with "sovereignty-association" is that well, if you're going to leave, we're not going to let you guys leech off of us... because that's the way the concept looked to us. If you leave, you leave! It's like a kid who runs away from home who still wants his allowance every week. Well, that's how it looked, anyway.

But then why not extend that concept to the whole country: all provinces sovereign, but associated in an economic alliance... like the EU!

Of course, maybe it wouldn't be feasable for all provinces as they are... but what about the maritimes being a whole "state" by itself, and some of the western provinces could merge if they want. Etc...

Nothing is perfect, and I'm (obviously) no big political brain! But I do feel there can be a way where some kind or economic equality is feasible accross the country (ie no feeling that one is leaching on others), while at the same time one doesn't feel the whole of the country is stepping over one's own desire for self-government.

Let Quebec say what it wants, needs, hope. Let the West say what it wants, needs hope. And so for Ontario, and so for the Maritimes. And maybe let's try not to step on each other's toes to accomplish these wants, needs and hopes, while economically ally each other to help each other attain them.

How to do that?
!!!!!!!!1I HAVE NO FRIGGIN IDEA!!!!!!!!!
Hehe...

Ah, economic equality between all provinces...

Myself and five others, we wrote a fifty-page compilation on the problem as a school project, and got 100% on it... I think I have the thing sitting around somewhere so maybe I'll draw some points off of it. Or maybe I'll just get some of my colleagues here to talk for me... though I'm the only real ezboarder out of them all...

Would the West have a problem with distinct society if all the provinces were granted the same rights as Quebec? That's what I was proposing. Quebec gets distinct society but so does Alberta, BC, ect. I haven't lived out West; I've only been to Vancouver for a few days. I have lived in Nova Scotia, for two years. I think the Maritimes are their own distinct society, Ontario is it's own distinct society, Quebec... You tell me, is the West distince too? I think it must be. I remember when I took Canadian history at university and the prof said something to the effect that Canadians often have more in common with their US neighbors immediately to the south than they do with fellow Canadians on the opposite coast. Don't you think a case could be made for distinct societies all over Canada with appropriate powers being handed to the provinces accordingly? Actually, what juntel's proposing is more or less on the same lines as what I am: more powers to the provinces to do as they see fit.

Yes, that's right.

The provinces are naturally - in geography, in resources, in economy - different.

The federal government cannot set down a whole lot of stuff applying to everybody, because one entire region or another will be dissastisfied.

Your ruinging the place by posting thoughtful thoughts!

my 2 cents:

benefits: Quebec finally "wins" its battle aginst the British, and is given the glory of becoming its own state.

problems: The economy is instantly broke.
What people haven't mentioned here is... did you know that Canada relies VERY heavily on the US for everything? Yes, that's right; its economy is basically based on it; the US has a special relationship with Canada and both countries make a very big trade between each other.
Well, as the US has stated, once (and if) Quebec separates, all those treaties are gone and Quebec will have to have the whole "trust" thing between the US start all over again.
Plus... there is proof and more proof that it will not benefit either Quebec or Canada. What happened when Russia broke up? The main part dwindled, to say the least, and the smaller parts were plunged into war. Living conditions are very poor there, from what I've heard. With the exception of Finland, which separated after WW1.
My belief is that that's the same thing that will happen if Quebec separates. It won't be plunged into war, since that will end in disasterous consequences, but it will be broken economically. And Canada will definitely dwindle. Quebec provides a good part of Canada's factories.
Now look at the smaller but still important things; companies will spend millions of dollars (combined) in order to take the French side out of their logos, etc. The same will happen in Quebec.
All French teachers (English teachers in Quebec) will lose their jobs. That's quite a lot of people.
There are probably more but I can't think of any right now.

Niffiwan, one problem with your statements - I don't believe Quebec separating invalidates the Official Languages Act that applies to all of Canada. French is still taught, French is still on the cereal boxes.

You're right about the economic collapse, though. And without Quebec... well... that province is one MAJOR source of hydro power...

ARRRRR This is my subject!... I am not finished reading yet but I just wanted to say that... now I'll read the posts and comment.

Ok... I did read all...
ARE YOU CRAZY?
Separation is not a sci-fi movie!

This is for real. What you do evoque is pure disinformation Niffiwan, laid down by those against this same separation.

You think economy would crumble? This is so funny! I'm sorry to inform you that we are a fourth of the Canada's population and we produce AT LEAST(much more if I'm not mistaken) a fourth of the goods produced in CAN. And in case you didn't see it coming, economy is already crumbling in CAN. How much is the dollar worth now?

Anyway, all those arguments you spoke off are the same federalist politicians use to disinform our grandparents.

I know we lost the war a long time ago. But that's no excuse for the way we were treated for the past 300 years. My ancestors are from France and english have always laugh at us and our inaction against all injustices. We basically did nothing to help it. We have a slogan on Quebec's car plate: "Je me souviens" Or in english "I remember". That's for us to remember what we are and that we're different from english and what they did to us in the past.

Now it's time to get our freedom back.

I think a treaty is possible between rest of Canada and Québec but this would have to be between two countries.

... I'm getting pretty emotionnal about this subject, probably the most I will ever get on this board. Sorry if I offense anybody in this or any future posts on this subject. And... nothing personnal Niffiwan

"You think economy would crumble? This is so funny! I'm sorry to inform you that we are a fourth of the Canada's population and we produce AT LEAST(much more if I'm not mistaken) a fourth of the goods produced in CAN."

... says the man neglecting to point out that Saskatchewan, even with a much smaller percentage of the population, produces two-thirds of the WORLD'S supply of wheat.

"And in case you didn't see it coming, economy is already crumbling in CAN. How much is the dollar worth now?"

More than it was worth two years ago, during the major slump.

"I know we lost the war a long time ago. But that's no excuse for the way we were treated for the past 300 years. My ancestors are from France and english have always laugh at us and our inaction against all injustices. We basically did nothing to help it."

More detail please?

"We have a slogan on Quebec's car plate: "Je me souviens" Or in english "I remember". That's for us to remember what we are and that we're different from english and what they did to us in the past."

I'm sure "Je me souviens" actually refers specifically to the WWI conscription crisis, FYI.

"I think a treaty is possible between rest of Canada and Québec but this would have to be between two countries."

Why?

"I'm getting pretty emotionnal about this subject, probably the most I will ever get on this board. Sorry if I offense anybody in this or any future posts on this subject."

Just to clarify - when debating, I am never offended, just inspired.

Again, I reinforce - a quarter of the population does not mean a quarter of the economy.

And in case you didn't see it coming, economy is already crumbling in CAN. How much is the dollar worth now?

And do you think it will get better if Quebec separates? You just made a point against yourself.

Stop thinking about the glory of the past and everything; you won't return to your old "glory" if you separate. Who's going to trade with you? The US isn't. And as pointed out, North Quebec won't belong to Quebec the country, which will cause major problems.
Personally, I was on the French side of the war when I was learning about Canadian history, even though I live in Ontario. However, if these are you thoughts:
"oh glory! We have the chance to fight back at those damn British again! Power and glory will return to the French"
Then you better research the other side of the subject. I don't mean just this thread.

any of the other controversial topics - abortion, evolution, etc., etc...

But I figure that I can look at this one objectively enough to discuss it.

"What you do evoque is pure disinformation Niffiwan, laid down by those against this same separation."

Pure disinformation? I can understand an argument against it being rock-solid fact, but...

I'm sorry if you've developed a little conspiracy theory about those rotten Anglos trying to oppress the French... it's more a matter of popular consensus than organized conspiracy.

"You think economy would crumble? This is so funny! I'm sorry to inform you that we are a fourth of the Canada's population and we produce AT LEAST(much more if I'm not mistaken) a fourth of the goods produced in CAN. And in case you didn't see it coming, economy is already crumbling in CAN. How much is the dollar worth now?"

Okay, first off, if you're a fourth of the Canadian population, you're still only 7.5 million people or so... not exactly a huge powerhouse of a population. Yes, you have your hydro dams (arguably your most valuable natural resource), but most goods-production is based, more or less, on population. And with seven and a half million people, you aren't going to be exactly a mass-production powerhouse - or a mass-consumption one either.

"And in case you didn't see it coming, economy is already crumbling in CAN."

So that's why the G-8 conference revolved around the "booming economies" of the member countries - of which Canada is one?

It would seem that the rest of the world disagrees with you on this one.

"How much is the dollar worth now?"

IronParrot covered this one admirably. Personally, all it means to me is that my spambar cheques are worth more money! But seriously...

"Now it's time to get our freedom back."

You seem extremely confident in the survival of the Quebec economy if you separate... but how do you think that your currency will hold up? It's not determined by actual economic strength - rather, it's the confidence of the currency traders in your country's economy. And I very much doubt that Quebec would be able to project enough of this confidence to keep its currency afloat...



No, I don't dislike Quebec. I haven't spent a lot of time there, but aside from the traffic, it seemed like a pretty nice place. I don't like the censorship against English businesses there, but it could be a lot worse. Quebec does play an important role in the Canadian economy, but when you consider the amount of debt you'll have to take on, the supports from Ottawa that'll be removed, etc., etc... well, it seems to me that Canada will hold up a great deal better than Quebec in the event of separation.

I personally don't think that Quebec lacks any more freedom any more than BC, etc...

I do think that Quebec and all other provinces should have more indepedance, and have an overall economic alliance where there could be less whinning (and again, how to achieve that? I STILL HAVE NO FRIGGIN' IDEA!!!!)

I don't think that demanding that a store have a french-only or french-predominating front-store advertising should be considered at all as censorship.
Censorship is about preventing someone from expressing an opinion, or how to express it. The goods that are sold inside the store are still expressed in french AND english. And alot of the time the french translation of the manuals are so BAD that it insulting.

I do not believe that my english neighbor beat me at a war a few hundred years ago. Their ancestors' country (Britain) did beat my ancestors' country (France), but that's it. It doesn't mean one quebecor shouldn't consider wanting to reverse democratically the consequence of that long ago war, but he/she shouldn't look at the english neighbor as a conquerer: it's just a citizen as he/she is.

A long time ago, in the first referendum for sovereignty-association, some analysts where saying that in the event of a yes, the quebec "dollar" would go down as low as something like 65cents US... Need I say more?

Heh, 65 cents US, just like the Canadian dollar two years ago.

(Was that intentional? "Need I say more?" you quipped...)