Sauron's trips to Sammath Naur

[Gordis]

Sam and Frodo saw Sauron’s road from Barad-dûr to Sammath Naur

Out from the Dark Tower’s huge western gate it came over a deep abyss by a vast bridge of iron, and then passing into the plain it ran for a league between two smoking chasms, and so reached a long sloping causeway that led up on to the Mountain’s eastern side. Thence, turning and encircling all its wide girth from south to north, it climbed at last, high in the upper cone, but still far from the reeking summit, to a dark entrance that gazed back east straight to the Window of the Eye in Sauron’s shadow-mantled fortress. Often blocked or destroyed by the tumults of the Mountain’s furnaces, always that road was repaired and cleaned again by the labours of countless orcs.

It seems that Sauron used this road regularly, so he had some business at Sammath Naur. What was he doing there? Was he obliged to go there in person to cause darkness that covered the lands to the West? Was he obliged to go there to make this strong eruption on March 9, the signal for the war, which had been answered by blue lightnings from the Morgul Tower?

If it was the case, then Shagrat's words: "The Eye is busy elsewhere" may have simply meant that Sauron (referred to as "the Eye" by the Orcs) was away from Barad Dur.

So let us see. There is about 50 miles between Barad-Dur and Orodruin: at least half a day hard riding. I don't think Sauron used a Fell Beast, because why then did he need a road maintained in order?

So, Darkness started to pour out of Mordor on March 9. Sauron was probably at Sammath Naur, and also made a signal for Morgul host to leave (It seems he loved dramatic effects: why couldn't he simply set the hour in advance or sent a nazgul?).
Sauron must have stayed there for several days: till March 13. Proof? The nazgul normally were able to send instant messages to Sauron. But they were unable to do so for a good while, most likely due to Sauron's absence.

`No, I don't know,' said Gorbag's voice. `The messages go through quicker than anything could fly, as a rule. But I don't enquire how it's done. Safest not to. ...'

'Bad business,' said Gorbag. `See here – our Silent Watchers were uneasy more than two days ago, that I know. But my patrol wasn't ordered out for another day, nor any message sent to Lugbúrz either: owing to the Great Signal going up, and the High Nazgûl going off to the war, and all that. And then they couldn't get Lugbúrz to pay attention for a good while, I'm told.'
`The Eye was busy elsewhere, I suppose,' said Shagrat. `Big things going on away west, they say.'

So, likely Sauron was away from Barad Dur and from his Palantir on March 9-13, thus overlooking Frodo's passage of the Crossroads (March 9), the Muster of Rohan (10), the Ride of the Rohirrim before they entered the Druedain forest (13), Aragorn's ride from Erech with the Army of the Dead (9-13) and the capture of the Fleet at Pelargir (13).

Likely, when he returned to Barad-Dur, he rushed to his Palantir and kept all his attention on Minas Tirith and Denethor and on the Pelennor, disregarding small matters, like a capture of a spy at Ungol. But his being away from Mt. Doom proved perilous, as his Darkness failed on the morning of the Pelennor Battle (March 15). I think, poor Sau hurried immediately to Orodruin again, to make new portion of smoke, and thus missed the approach of Aragorn up Anduin.

Sauron simply had too much on his hands, poor megalomaniac, never trusting his underlings enough...

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Another great thread from Gordis.

Originally Posted by Gordis

It seems that Sauron used this road regularly, so he had some business at Sammath Naur. What was he doing there? Was he obliged to go there in person to cause darkness that covered the lands to the West? Was he obliged to go there to make this strong eruption on March 9, the signal for the war, which had been answered by blue lightnings from the Morgul Tower?

If it was the case, then Shagrat's words: "The Eye is busy elsewhere" may have simply meant that Sauron (referred to as "the Eye" by the Orcs) was away from Barad Dur.

That makes sense to me. That he would have to go himself to Mt Doom to cause the darkness. His power wasn't fully restored right? So he probably had to do a lot of things 'by hand' so to speak.

So, Darkness started to pour out of Mordor on March 9. Sauron was probably at Sammath Naur, and also made a signal for Morgul host to leave (It seems he loved dramatic effects: why couldn't he simply set the hour in advance or sent a nazgul?).

I think the eruption and the blue lighning was a fear tactic. The old 'break a man's courage and you break the man' type of thing. He so loved that.

Sauron must have stayed there for several days: till March 13. Proof? The nazgul normally were able to send instant messages to Sauron. But they were unable to do so for a good while, most likely due to Sauron's absence.

So, likely Sauron was away from Barad Dur and from his Palantir on March 9-13, thus overlooking Frodo's passage of the Crossroads (March 9), the Muster of Rohan (10), the Ride of the Rohirrim before they entered the Druedain forest (13), Aragorn's ride from Erech with the Army of the Dead (9-13) and the capture of the Fleet at Pelargir (13).

This time line makes sense to my I guess.

Likely, when he returned to Barad-Dur, he rushed to his Palantir and kept all his attention on Minas Tirith and Denethor and on the Pelennor, disregarding small matters, like a capture of a spy at Ungol. But his being away from Mt. Doom proved perilous, as his Darkness failed on the morning of the Pelennor Battle (March 15). I think, poor Sau hurried immediately to Orodruin again, to make new portion of smoke, and thus missed the approach of Aragorn up Anduin.

The one thing that has always bothered me is: Sauron knew the ring was once in the hands of a hobbit and he had to have gotten some news that the prisoner at Ungol was in fact a hobbit. Now wouldn't Sauron, being paranoid and all, think that there was a chance the Ring was in Mordor? Maybe send out a search party for the escaped prisoner? Could he have simply thought the Men of Gondor would using the hobbits like they had once been used for, to spy? The Mouth refers to him(Frodo) later as a spy, but did Sauron really think that? I mean come on. Hobbit had the Ring, hobbit captured at Ungol, hobbit escapes. 1+1+1+paranoid lord= what? I don't know. Maybe I missed something?

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Faramir

The one thing that has always bothered me is: Sauron knew the ring was once in the hands of a hobbit and he had to have gotten some news that the prisoner at Ungol was in fact a hobbit. Now wouldn't Sauron, being paranoid and all, think that there was a chance the Ring was in Mordor? Maybe send out a search party for the escaped prisoner? Could he have simply thought the Men of Gondor would using the hobbits like they had once been used for, to spy? The Mouth refers to him(Frodo) later as a spy, but did Sauron really think that? I mean come on. Hobbit had the Ring, hobbit captured at Ungol, hobbit escapes. 1+1+1+paranoid lord= what? I don't know. Maybe I missed something?

Sauron didn't get the news that the prisoner WAS A HOBBIT until it was too late.

It seems, that until Frodo was captured, both the nazgul and Sauron were troubled only about some spies, not hobbits:

But there's no doubt about it, they're troubled about something. The Nazgûl down below are, by your account; and Lugbúrz is too. Something nearly slipped.'.

The nazgul finally managed to get a message through to Sauron - on the 13 of March. (Curious that the nazgul never thought of sending one of them to find Sauron at Orodruin. Probably no one wanted to come close to the Fiery Mountain ).

Sauron, upon receiving the news, immediately sent a message to Cirith Ungol. (Interesting -how? Telegraph, perhaps ). This message is given:

`About an hour ago, just before you saw us, a message came: Nazgûl uneasy. Spies feared on Stairs. Double vigilance. Patrol to head of Stairs. I came at once.'

So, initially, the only thing Sauron knew was that some "spies" slipped past Minas Morgul and went up the secret stairs to Ungol. It seems, by the way, that the Witch-King didn't inform Sauron that he sort of felt the presence of the Ring in his valley. Interesting, eh?

Neither did the nazgul send anyone in pursuit until it was almost too late. I guess, the nazgul gave any intruders, except the short-legged exhausted hobbits , time enough to pass Cirith Ungol safely, before they raised an alarm. The hobbits were too slow on the stairs, slower then the nazgul reckoned them to be. That was a slight miscalculation, which almost proved fatal.

But it is not as simple as that, because Sauron also sent Shagrat additional orders:

Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring, or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself.

Doesn't it sound like Sauron has made some connection with the Ring? A Ring is mentioned; the possibility of Sauron coming to Ungol in person is also quite revealing. But most of all I love this "to Lugburz only". It meant, in other words, "NOT to Minas Morgul" (There were two companies patrolling the stairs: one from Ungol, and one from Morgul.) It seems Sauron stopped trusting his nazgul, and got some inkling at last that they were fooling him all along.

But why did he make such a connection? I don't know.

Perhaps he suspected any anomaly, like an unheard-of spy on the Stairs to be connected with the Ring-business?

Or he suspected only those events which caused his nazgul to act strange to be connected with the Ring?

As for the nazgul, I think their keeping quiet about the passage of the spies by their fortress for several days was a last straw that finally broke Sauron's trust. He started to sum up things: their long search for the Ring in the Vales, their failure in the Shire, and at the Weathertop, and at the Ford, their inability to locate hobbits with the Ring later...

Then, it seems, after capturing Frodo, the orcs were too busy fighting over his mithril shirt to send a messenger to Barad-Dur.

And when some new lads come, I’ll deal with you: I’ll send you to Shelob.’
`They won’t come, not before you’re dead anyway,’ answered Snaga surlily. ‘I’ve told you twice that Gorbag’s swine got to the gate first, and none of ours got out. Lagduf and Muzgash ran through, but they were shot. I saw it from a window, I tell you. And they were the last.’
‘Then you must go. ...You must go, or I’ll eat you. News must get through to Lugbúrz, or we’ll both be for the Black Pits. Yes, you too. You won’t escape by skulking here.’

So untill the morning of 15, Sauron didn't learn that A HOBBIT was captured on the 13!

[Landroval]

Now wouldn't Sauron, being paranoid and all, think that there was a chance the Ring was in Mordor?

Apparently not; according to the Council of Elrond:

Let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy! For he is very wise, and weighs all things to a nicety in the scales of his malice. But the only measure that he knows is desire, desire for power; and so he judges all hearts. Into his heart the thought will not enter that any will refuse it, that having the Ring we may seek to destroy it. If we seek this, we shall put him out of reckoning.
...
Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.
...
This is the hour of the Shire-folk, when they arise from their quiet fields to shake the towers and counsels of the Great. Who of all the Wise could have foreseen it? Or, if they are wise, why should they expect to know it, until the hour has struck?

It seems Sauron stopped trusting his nazgul, and got some inkling at last that they were fooling him all along.

I disagree:

Originally Posted by Letter #246

I do not think [the nazguls] could have attacked [Frodo] with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand - laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills.

[Gordis]

Oh, yes, I know this quote. It describes the nazgul actions if they faced Frodo wielding the Ring. Sauron had primary control of their wills, while Frodo would only have some secondary control.

And yes, Sauron was able to control the nazgul when he used their Rings to control them. But he couldn't do that all the time.

His only problem was that he couldn't do everything at once: look in the Palantir, control Denethor, control orcs, control Orodruin eruptions, control the nazgul, plan the battles, run Mordor etc. etc.

He was alone to do all that, so once he was set on one thing, he had to let slip the others. And the nazgul must have had a pretty good idea when trey were being watched and when not.

A quote is a good thing, but look at the facts. Why were the orcs ordered to report to Barad-Dur ONLY, and not to Minas Morgul?

[Landroval]

His only problem was that he couldn't do everything at once: look in the Palantir, control Denethor

Denethor was deceived, maybe even corrupted to some degree, but he never fell to Sauron's control. He was too strong for that.

A quote is a good thing, but look at the facts. Why were the orcs ordered to report to Barad-Dur ONLY, and not to Minas Morgul?

Facts? I can't count all the possible explanations. We are talking about the most important item in all Middle-Earth; was there anyone else in Sauron's service who he thought was better prepared to handle a 'ring-in-Mordor' situation than he himself? And what mess would happen if both Sauron and a nazgul would initiate various actions in order to manage the situation? We see how easily orcs slay each other. And the less orcs are involved in the communication process, the better, seeing how treacherous or untrustworthy they are.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Denethor was deceived, maybe even corrupted to some degree, but he never fell to Sauron's control. He was too strong for that.

Here you are right, I should have used another word, not "control". But still selecting images for Denethor to see took time and concentration, didn't it?

Meanwhile, the nazgul felt free to do what they liked. , hobbits were sneaking into Mordor, smoke production in Orodruin decreased dramatically, and orcs fought between themselves.... Poor Sau.

[Landroval]

Meanwhile, the nazgul felt free to do what they liked. , hobbits were sneaking into Mordor, smoke production in Orodruin decreased dramatically, and orcs fought between themselves.... Poor Sau.

I wouldn't say it was a problem of too many things to handle; all the pace of the war was dictated by Sauron (less the last part ) - but an inherent weaknes in his evil being and therefore in his wisdom too; as a side note, Tolkien states in Notes on motives in the Silmarillion that Saruman became evil and therefore stupid .

[The Gaffer]

Could have my timeline messed up, but:

they couldn't get Lugbúrz to pay attention for a good while, I'm told.'
`The Eye was busy elsewhere, I suppose,

I'd always associated this with Aragorn and his confrontation.

[Butterbeer]

Gor:

... His only problem was that he couldn't do everything at once: look in the Palantir, control Denethor, control orcs, control Orodruin eruptions, control the nazgul, plan the battles, run Mordor etc. etc.

He was alone to do all that, so once he was set on one thing, he had to let slip the others...

If only he'd had a wife!

*cough* Galadriel *cough*

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

Facts? I can't count all the possible explanations. We are talking about the most important item in all Middle-Earth; was there anyone else in Sauron's service who he thought was better prepared to handle a 'ring-in-Mordor' situation than he himself? And what mess would happen if both Sauron and a nazgul would initiate various actions in order to manage the situation? We see how easily orcs slay each other. And the less orcs are involved in the communication process, the better, seeing how treacherous or untrustworthy they are.

The orders Sauron gave Shagrat on March 13, clearly imply that he suspected that spies could be connected with the Ring. Do you agree with it, Landroval?

Don't you think, that the most obvious thing to do was to send one of the nazgul to Ungol immediately to investigate the matter and report to him? Why didn't he do that?

And what if the spy put on the Ring and escaped the orcs? A nazgul was crucial there, much more necessary that screeching over Minas Tirith.

Why he forbade the orcs to report to Minas Morgul at all?

I say, it was only because he stopped trusting his nazgul.

Originally Posted by Landroval

I wouldn't say it was a problem of too many things to handle; all the pace of the war was dictated by Sauron (less the last part ) - but an inherent weaknes in his evil being and therefore in his wisdom too; as a side note, Tolkien states in Notes on motives in the Silmarillion that Saruman became evil and therefore stupid .

First of all, I am speaking exactly of the days of the war, when Sauron had to start the offensive before he was fully prepared. For instance, he had not bred enough black uruks who could withstand sunshine easily - therefore the need for the Pall of Darkness. It was not only for dramatic effect, it was needed for the orcs to operate. But he miscalculated his own abilities to handle all the crucial things at once. And he really trusted nobody in the end.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Could have my timeline messed up, but:

I'd always associated this with Aragorn and his confrontation.

No, it is impossible, sorry. The "videoconference " with Aragorn was on March 6 (Aragorn overtaken by the Dúnedain in the early hours. Théoden sets out from the Hornburg for Harrowdale. Aragorn sets out later.-Tale of years).
Frodo passed Minas Morgul and saw the Great Signal and the Darkness pouring out of Mordor on March 9.
From March 9 to March 13 the Nazgul were unable to send instant messages to Sauron. Aragorn at this time travelled from Erech to Pelargir.

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

If only he'd had a wife! *cough* Galadriel *cough*

That would have been the end of Middle Earth!

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Another great thread from Gordis.

Seconded

Originally Posted by Gordis

It seems that Sauron used this road regularly, so he had some business at Sammath Naur. What was he doing there? Was he obliged to go there in person to cause darkness that covered the lands to the West? Was he obliged to go there to make this strong eruption on March 9, the signal for the war, which had been answered by blue lightnings from the Morgul Tower?

If it was the case, then Shagrat's words: "The Eye is busy elsewhere" may have simply meant that Sauron (referred to as "the Eye" by the Orcs) was away from Barad Dur.

I think you are right that he went there fairly often. I’m not sure that he would have made a special trip just to make the signal, but going to make the cloud/smoke cover seems reasonable.

Orodruin seems to hold some significance that I don’t really understand. Why was this the only place in Middle Earth where the Ring could be destroyed? It doesn’t seem to be simply a matter of high temperatures. After a little research I found that very hot lava may reach about 1250 degrees C, while iron melts at 1535 C. So, the inhabitants of Middle Earth could probably produce higher temperatures than the volcano.

I would guess that after making the One, Sauron’s power was greatest at and somewhat tied to this place, just like the Ring’s was. They were basically two parts of the same being after all. Perhaps when Sauron needed his full strength, he went to Orodruin.

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

The one thing that has always bothered me is: Sauron knew the ring was once in the hands of a hobbit and he had to have gotten some news that the prisoner at Ungol was in fact a hobbit. Now wouldn't Sauron, being paranoid and all, think that there was a chance the Ring was in Mordor? Maybe send out a search party for the escaped prisoner? Could he have simply thought the Men of Gondor would using the hobbits like they had once been used for, to spy? The Mouth refers to him(Frodo) later as a spy, but did Sauron really think that? I mean come on. Hobbit had the Ring, hobbit captured at Ungol, hobbit escapes. 1+1+1+paranoid lord= what? I don't know. Maybe I missed something?

I agree with Landroval here. Sauron never saw this possibility until he was aware of Frodo standing at the Cracks of Doom. Gordis, you pointed out that Sauron wasn’t made aware that the spy was a Hobbit until the 15th, but this would allow plenty of time to close off the approach to Orodruin if Sauron suspected that they may be trying to destroy the Ring.

Actually, I don’t think that Sauron believed that there was much of a chance that a Hobbit would still be holding the Ring after it got to Rivendell. He judged people by desire for power. He knew that Gandalf (who had recently questioned Gollum, and so could be expected to know about the Ring) was present at Rivendell. So were Elrond and Glorfindel. Sauron probably thought that one of these people (most likely Gandalf) had taken possession of the Ring.

Any trespasser found by the guard is to be held at the tower. Prisoner is to be stripped. Full description of every article, garment, weapon, letter, ring, or trinket is to be sent to Lugbúrz at once, and to Lugbúrz only. And the prisoner is to be kept safe and intact, under pain of death for every member of the guard, until He sends or comes Himself.

I could be mistaken, but I don’t think these were special orders regarding these particular spies. These sound like standing orders to me. The words “or comes Himself” sound similar to “or the world end” in the oath that one takes when becoming a knight of Gondor. These words refer to possibilities that logically have to be mentioned, but aren’t likely to happen.

Originally Posted by Gordis

First of all, I am speaking exactly of the days of the war, when Sauron had to start the offensive before he was fully prepared. For instance, he had not bred enough black uruks who could withstand sunshine easily - therefore the need for the Pall of Darkness. It was not only for dramatic effect, it was needed for the orcs to operate. But he miscalculated his own abilities to handle all the crucial things at once. And he really trusted nobody in the end.

I agree. He couldn’t really handle everything himself, no matter how hard he tried. I can’t really blame him for not trusting his underlings. Look at who was working for him. While I don’t think he fully trusted the Nazgul, it seems that he wasn’t really concerned about what they may have done if they obtained the Ring. He had sent them to capture it earlier after all.

[Landroval]

I disagree that Sauron didn't trust the nazguls; in Unfinished Tales, it is stated that:

They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held; they were quite incapable of acting against his will, and if one of them, even the Witch-king their captain, had seized the One Ring, he would have brought it back to his Master

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Landroval

I disagree that Sauron didn't trust the nazguls; in Unfinished Tales, it is stated that:

You misunderstood me, it seems. Sauron did trust the nazgul to bring him the Ring, IF and WHEN they obtained it. And he was right. They couldn't claim it, as they were slaves to the Nine Rings that Sauron himself held. I believe he could kill anyone of them anytime by destroying the corresponding Ring.

But, what the nazgul were doing, was trying to avoid obtaining it, actually avoid any contact with the Ring. Once they felt it, they headed double quick in the opposite direction. This Sauron couldn't understand for a long time. He really had difficulty understanding people NOT wanting his Ring. CAB is right: Sauron never considered that anyone would want to destroy the Ring, until he was aware of Frodo standing at the Cracks of Doom.

There is a good thread by Olmer about the Hunt for the Ring. I bumped it for you.http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.ph...5&page=1&pp=20

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

Orodruin seems to hold some significance that I don’t really understand. Why was this the only place in Middle Earth where the Ring could be destroyed? It doesn’t seem to be simply a matter of high temperatures. After a little research I found that very hot lava may reach about 1250 degrees C, while iron melts at 1535 C. So, the inhabitants of Middle Earth could probably produce higher temperatures than the volcano.

Really? I always thought that the temperature within a volcano was much higher than in any forge...
Perhaps, Tolkien thought so as well?

IMHO, the reason Gandalf gives is the temperature: no forge, hardly dragon fire, only Orodruin.

I would guess that after making the One, Sauron’s power was greatest at and somewhat tied to this place, just like the Ring’s was. They were basically two parts of the same being after all. Perhaps when Sauron needed his full strength, he went to Orodruin.

I agree. It is a very clever observation. Perhaps it answers the much debated question why Sauron, escaping the Siege of Barad-Dur made his way to the Mountain...

Originally Posted by CAB

Gordis, you pointed out that Sauron wasn’t made aware that the spy was a Hobbit until the 15th, but this would allow plenty of time to close off the approach to Orodruin if Sauron suspected that they may be trying to destroy the Ring. Actually, I don’t think that Sauron believed that there was much of a chance that a Hobbit would still be holding the Ring after it got to Rivendell. He judged people by desire for power. He knew that Gandalf (who had recently questioned Gollum, and so could be expected to know about the Ring) was present at Rivendell. So were Elrond and Glorfindel. Sauron probably thought that one of these people (most likely Gandalf) had taken possession of the Ring.

Yes I see what you mean. It makes sense. Sauron heard of a hobbit at Ungol, but still didn't connect him with the Ring or didn't guess his destination.

Originally Posted by CAB

I could be mistaken, but I don’t think these were special orders regarding these particular spies. These sound like standing orders to me.

Maybe you are right. When then were they given? Perhaps a long time ago - in 2951 or something.

Then, could this mention of "Rings" refer to the Three and not to the One? Perhaps he knew who had the third Ring (Galadriel and Elrond were easy to guess). Saruman knew that Gandalf had Narya, and likely he told that to Sauron. So, was he suspecting that Gandalf might want to come to Mordor to spy?
Also, note "trinkets". Maybe, it was the way to depict other power objects that a powerful spy was likely to possess, like Phial of Galadriel. He would need something to get by the Silent Watchers and other possible traps.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Really? I always thought that the temperature within a volcano was much higher than in any forge...
Perhaps, Tolkien thought so as well?

I wasn’t sure myself, so I looked it up. It is quite possible that Tolkien didn’t know either. He was just as human as you or I. Also he didn’t have those convenient internet search engines that we have.

Originally Posted by Gordis

IMHO, the reason Gandalf gives is the temperature: no forge, hardly dragon fire, only Orodruin.

Could be. My feelings are that heat alone could be enough, but that this amount of heat couldn’t be generated in Middle Earth by Dwarves, Elves, Dragons,...or Orodruin. I believe that the volcano could destroy the Ring because of the combination of great heat and the power involved with the Ring’s creation. I don’t know how to describe the power part because I don’t really understand it. To me, it seems to be related to the fact that Sauron and the Ring are strongest while at Orodruin. Maybe the volcano is actually tied into their existence somehow. It did act violently after the Ring's/Sauron's destruction.

Originally Posted by Gordis

Then, could this mention of "Rings" refer to the Three and not to the One? Perhaps he knew who had the third Ring (Galadriel and Elrond were easy to guess). Saruman knew that Gandalf had Narya, and likely he told that to Sauron. So, was he suspecting that Gandalf might want to come to Mordor to spy?

Yes, Gandalf would be the right choice I think. He has been known to spy on Sauron before.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by CAB

I wasn’t sure myself, so I looked it up. It is quite possible that Tolkien didn’t know either. He was just as human as you or I. Also he didn’t have those convenient internet search engines that we have.

Yes it is quite likely that Tolkien was not an expert in volcanology. There was a thread here about "pyroclactic flow" or something like that, where geologists pointed out that there was no way that Frofdo and Sam could have remained alive...

Originally Posted by CAB

Could be. My feelings are that heat alone could be enough, but that this amount of heat couldn’t be generated in Middle Earth by Dwarves, Elves, Dragons,...or Orodruin. I believe that the volcano could destroy the Ring because of the combination of great heat and the power involved with the Ring’s creation. I don’t know how to describe the power part because I don’t really understand it. To me, it seems to be related to the fact that Sauron and the Ring are strongest while at Orodruin. Maybe the volcano is actually tied into their existence somehow. It did act violently after the Ring's/Sauron's destruction.

I agree.


About standing orders to Shagrat. Isn't it strange that Gorbag from Minas Morgul seemingly had no such orders? After all BOTH fortresses guarded the Pass.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

About standing orders to Shagrat. Isn't it strange that Gorbag from Minas Morgul seemingly had no such orders? After all BOTH fortresses guarded the Pass.

It does seem a bit strange. Maybe the best answer is that only captains (and ranks above) were aware of this order. Wasn’t Shagrat a higher rank than Gorbag? Their subordinates would bring the prisoners to the captains first, as unharmed as possible. That part at least was probably known to every soldier in Mordor. Only the higher ranks needed to know what should happen after that.

[Gordis]

Makes sense.

Minas Morgul was more or less autonomous, had its own livery for instance and its own banners. So probably the standing orders there were different - they had to report to the Morgul Lord, not Sauron.

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Gordis

Minas Morgul was more or less autonomous, had its own livery for instance and its own banners. So probably the standing orders there were different - they had to report to the Morgul Lord, not Sauron.

You are probably right. Now that I think about it, this is more evidence that the Nazgul had some will of their own. Minas Morgul’s troops having their own banners, etc. and especially autonomy, sounds like an attempt to keep the Witch King happy to me. If he was no more than Sauron’s puppet, then why not dress and treat the Morgul Orcs like the rest of those in Mordor?