02-25-2006, 03:27 PM | #1 |
Lady of the Ulairi
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Snowstorm at the Redhorn Pass
A question that has always puzzled me: Who caused the snowstorm at Caradhras?
The members of the fellowship discussed the issue in LOTR, but never came to a definite answer. There are several possible suspects: 1. The ill will of Caradhras itself (Gimli and Aragorn seemed to favor this explanation) 2. Saruman. Saruman was a maia, therefore seemingly had the necessary power to meddle with the weather. He knew exactly of the fellowship position (from crebain) and probably guessed that they were on the way to Mordor carrying the Ring (and not just carrying the Ring to Lorien). It was vital to him to turn the fellowship's path to the gap of Rohan where they would be at his mercy. But Saruman was far away from Caradhras. Could he act at such a long distance? 3. Sauron Sauron might have known of the fellowship leaving Imladris and, if so, must have thought that Elrond had decided to surrender the Ring to his mother in law, Galadriel. As we know, he never suspected the fellowship's ultimate goal. He was interested to prevent the Ring falling into Galadriel's hands, because with the Ring she might have overthrown him. According to Boromir Sauron was known to cause storms in the Mountains of Shadow. But certainly it is a very great distance from Barad Dur to Caradhras. And he must have considered that closing the Redhorn Pass will force the Fellowship to take one of the other possible roots: either through Moria (risk of the Barlog getting the Ring), or through the gap of Rohan (risk of the Ring falling into Saruman's hands). Barlog was not in league with Sauron (see the tread on the subject). As for Saruman, by December 3018 Sauron knew of Saruman's treachery from the Witch-King's report at least (See "The hunt for the Ring" in UT). Therefore Sauron (if it was he who caused the storm) was facing a difficult choice but must have preferred the Barlog or Saruman as opponents to Galadriel. 4. The Barlog. Well... he was also a maia. Perhaps he was able to cause storms. He lived in the neighborhood. He was interested to force the fellowship into Moria to dispose of them there. But there is no indication that he knew anything about the fellowship or about the Ring before he felt their presence in his home (or before he got knocked on the head by Pippin's stone). 5. The Witch-King of Angmar. He might have been the nazgul that has flown over the Fellowship while they were hiking towards the Redhorn Pass. Frodo and Gandalf saw a dark shadow overhead and felt a chill. It was most probably a nazgul on the fell beast. The WK might have been returning from a spying mission to Rivendell borders or he might have been collecting some of the weaker Ringwraiths still lagging shapeless and miserable in Eriador after the disaster at the Ford. If so, the WK could have spotted the fellowship (seeing very clearly through the fell beast's eyes + at night his other senses were enhanced). Very probably he also felt the Ring's presence. He was the most capable of the nine to feel the presence of the Ring, remember he felt it from far away when Frodo and Sam were passing near Minas Morgul. The WK was known to cause snowstorms in the North during his reign in Angmar. And in winter his power was growing (See LOTR Appendices). So the WK might have landed his fell beast right atop Caradhras and made the storm in real time mode. As for his motives, he probably did not relish the idea of having to bow to a woman, so he was not going to let the Ring into Galadriel's hands. But he should have considered that if the Barlog got the Ring, Sauron would most probably send poor nazguls to get it from the Barlog... Not a nice prospect either. 6. Other (Galadriel, Elrond) But why would they? Any ideas? Last edited by Gordis : 02-25-2006 at 05:03 PM. |
02-25-2006, 04:13 PM | #2 |
Hobbit
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1. Maybe, although mountains generally are not evil.
2. Definitely Not. 3. Maybe. 4. NOOOO!!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT! 5. No. Firstly, the Nazgul didn't have that kind of power. Secondly, Sauron didn't let the Nazgul cross the river on their new steeds until after Isengard had fallen. 6. No. 7. There is another possibility. Pure coincidence, or chance, as we say in Middle Earth
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02-25-2006, 04:31 PM | #3 | |||
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02-25-2006, 04:40 PM | #4 |
Elf Lord
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Gandalf.
His original plan for the Fellowship's course was to go through Moria's tunnels. Don' forget, that if we think that Sauron and Saruman were capable to change the weather, than so and Gandalf, because, besides being Maia- the one of the lesser powers of Ainur, the powers of Nature, he had in his posession one of the major Rings of Power - Narya, the Ring of Fire. Besides, he wanted to "stitch" Gollum to the Ringbearer, who at that time was hanging around Moria, patiently waiting for the Fellowship to come. Crossing the mountans through the mountain pass was not included in Gandalf's scheming design, and in his own fashion he "presuaded" everyone to change the route. |
02-25-2006, 04:47 PM | #5 | |
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02-25-2006, 05:07 PM | #6 | ||
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God, who made thee mighty, Make thee mightier yet. Last edited by arvedui_last_king : 02-25-2006 at 05:08 PM. |
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02-25-2006, 05:21 PM | #7 | |
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The Ringbearer had the power of command, though he did not know about it, but Gandalf surely knew.This why he put all his power of presuasion to convince particularly the Ringbearer to take the course of his choice. Frodo had the last word on any decisions of the Fellowship , because his choice would resolute in the ultimate directive for others. |
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02-25-2006, 05:29 PM | #8 | |
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God, who made thee mighty, Make thee mightier yet. Last edited by arvedui_last_king : 02-25-2006 at 07:57 PM. |
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02-25-2006, 05:34 PM | #9 | ||
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I know the letter you refer to, but the facts show that the WK was not weak physically. He was going to take on Earnur in the battle of Fornost single-handedly - and Earnur was the strongest fighter in Gondor. He would have fought with Gandalf at the Gates of Minas Tirith. Glorfindel says that very few in Rivendell were strong enough to ride against the Nine. Why didn't he call an avalanche on Glorfy? Because 1. there was no mountain nearby. 2, Perhaps weather-spells take time and concentration, and he was in the midst of a lost battle. 3. Glorfy was a resurrected Calaquendi elf - a being of great power. Quote:
As for Sauron not letting the nazgul over the river, that was the explanation the nazgul present at Part Galen gave to his orcs, when he sent them alone into Rohan. I think it was simply because he had no fell beast and hated to cross the river by boat - they all, save the WK, feared water. By the way, this very same nazgul had his fell beast killed when he flew over the Fellowship who were on the West bank. So he had been over the river already. |
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02-25-2006, 05:40 PM | #10 | |
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By the way, in the movie you refer to, Frodo was a simple additional package with tearful frightened eyes, pathethic being that decided nothing. Last edited by Gordis : 02-26-2006 at 11:03 AM. Reason: not important anymore |
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02-25-2006, 05:45 PM | #11 | |
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Or perhaps I misunderstood you? You mean the power of command given Frodo by the Ruling Ring over the wielder of one of the Three? - That he could hardly have before he claimed and mastered the One. Or, do you mean, that though Gandalf was the nominal leader of the Fellowship, Frodo's wishes as the one entrusted with the Ring would overrule his command? |
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02-25-2006, 07:03 PM | #12 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Arvedui, please do not throw the word "ridiculous" out like that, in reference to a well-respected fellow mooter's idea in a post. Olmer has a lot of respect around here, and it's not too cool seeing his opinions being touted as "ridiculous." Just sayin'. But welcome to Entmoot.
NOW, I rather fancy the idea of it having been the Witch King of Angmar who flew over like that, causing the chill and the shadow. I need to think & ponder a bit more on these ideas, especially since I've always wondered the same thing myself about who really caused Caradhras' storm, so... but I love the thought of it having been our Witch King.
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02-25-2006, 07:41 PM | #13 | |
Hobbit
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Sorry, I didn't mean to cause offence, just that I disagreed.
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God, who made thee mighty, Make thee mightier yet. Last edited by arvedui_last_king : 02-25-2006 at 07:47 PM. |
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02-25-2006, 07:43 PM | #14 | |
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God, who made thee mighty, Make thee mightier yet. Last edited by arvedui_last_king : 02-25-2006 at 07:55 PM. |
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02-25-2006, 08:04 PM | #15 | |||
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02-25-2006, 08:13 PM | #16 | ||
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Do you have The History of Middle-Earth? As I recall, Tolkien originally envisaged that this was a Nazgul, but then changed his conceptions without removing the reference to the Nazgul. My copy of The Lord of the Rings: A Readers Companion agrees with me. There, I admit defeat.
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02-25-2006, 08:44 PM | #17 | |
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Yes, he was a nominal leader. Remember, from the beginning he was not even planning to go with the Ringbearer, making excuse that it's not for him to decide. But, I guess, Elrond also was not wholeheartedly sure that the Ringbearer woun't stray from the designated path. And, just as a precaution, the person with domineering ability to persuade was sent along with the rest of the Fellowship. Frodo would definately overrule his command, if he would be not so naive and trusting and would have a little bit more information besides what he have got from Gandalf. And the Grey Wizard would be powerless to contradict Frodo's decisions, because even if the Three had abilities to command, the One can overrule theirs power. This is why Gandalf went into such pain to convince Bilbo to leave the Ring behind instead of just ordering him to do so. Last edited by Olmer : 02-25-2006 at 08:52 PM. |
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02-25-2006, 09:27 PM | #18 | |||||||
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Sincerely, Anthony 'Many are my names in many countries,' he said. 'Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Drarves; Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.' Faramir What nobler employment, or more valuable to the state, than that of the man who instructs the rising generation? Cicero (106BC-43BC) |
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02-26-2006, 05:29 PM | #19 | ||||||||
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And I see, Arvedui, that you are really a nice person. Quote:
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The only real "persuasion" he displayed was with hobbits and dwarves, sending Bilbo on his Quest and making Frodo volunteer to carry the Ring (unless it was Eru himself who helped). When he made Bilbo leave the Ring to Frodo, it seems his "persuasion" was heavily enhanced by an open display of power. Quote:
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Of course, if Saruman doesn't have that power, then neither does Gandalf (unless it is the power of Narya), nor the Witch-King. That leaves us with Sauron alone (or Caradhras). |
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02-26-2006, 05:59 PM | #20 |
Hobbit
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I doubt Sauron was responsible, because wasn't he originally one of the people of Aule? Tolkien never says that he had any intrest in the air like Manwe did. Saruman was also chosen to go to middle earth by Aule, so he isn't a windy person either. As for Gandalf, he was supposed never to reveal his power: he didn't even want to summon up some fire on Caradhras, so I doubt he would have caused the storm.
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