Holocaust Denial

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by BBC News

A Nazi watchdog group warned that a "very ugly wave of Holocaust denial is sweeping the Arab world".

Reading the news today, I found that the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood leader, the main political opposition party to the current political power, has openly denied the Holocaust. "Western democracies have criticised all those who adopt a view different from that of the people of Zion about the myth of the Holocaust," he complained, arguing that he wanted to "expose the false American rule which has become a nightmare of a new world order."

This thread is designed to discuss Holocaust denial. What evidence is used to back Holocaust denial? Anti-semitism plainly is a major reason people do it, but if there are others, I'd be interested to hear about them.

Here is the article about the Muslim Brotherhood's claim. The Iranian president claimed the same.

Originally Posted by BBC News

The leader of Egypt's opposition Muslim Brotherhood has joined Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in calling the Nazi Holocaust a "myth".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4554986.stm

So as I said, tis thread is designed to discuss Holocaust denial. True or false. Extent of Holocaust denial feeling. People in modern times who deny the Holocaust. Reasons for that.

As this is a "very ugly wave . . . sweeping the Arab world," I thought bringing up a thread about it might be pertinant to the modern situation.

I know the issue gets, to some extent, into US foreign policy, and gets even more deeply into Israeli foreign policy. Those issues are important and very probably will have to be looked into. I hope we don't get into massive political tangents about whether the US and Israeli actions are right or wrong, in our opinions .

[rohirrim TR]

I've been wondering about that too, what exactly do they have to gain by denying the holocaust? I don't think it really helps their anti-semitic agenda; and it makes them look a bit foolish in the process. The only thing I can figure is that the common people who support these guys believe everything they say, so they're trying to spread that view point. Even at that its hard for me to see how that would help them or benefit them.

what was your theory lief?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

I've been wondering about that too, what exactly do they have to gain by denying the holocaust? I don't think it really helps their anti-semitic agenda; and it makes them look a bit foolish in the process. The only thing I can figure is that the common people who support these guys believe everything they say, so they're trying to spread that view point. Even at that its hard for me to see how that would help them or benefit them.

what was your theory lief?

Holocaust denial makes them look bad to their international audience. It makes them look good to their domestic audience, however. Many in the Middle East are strongly alligned against Israel because of the treatment of the Palestinians. Opposition to Israel is a kind of uniting factor amongst many Muslims in the Middle East. Denying the Holocaust is another stab at Israel, and gains public support amongst many of the people in the Middle East. It won't gain any points internationally. I, for a while, was pretty confused by that. Why say it if they're just making themselves look bad? By saying what they are, they can score points on their home soil.

[Insidious Rex]

Its just another loony conspiracy theory that allows certain middle eastern countries (I dont really see the benefit of saying its some kind of distinctly "Muslim" notion Lief) to rationalize the concept that Jews created it as an excuse to found the state of Isreal after World War Two. And that this was propogated by the allies (US and Britian in particular) because they didnt want the jews in their countries necessarily AND they wanted a foot hold in the oil rich middle east. Paranoid nonsense obviously but good internal propoganda never the less as you say.

[Earniel]

Denying the Holocaust is, IMO, like living with blinkers on. It's a bit... pathetic to use it as a tool in the Middle-east conflicts. In Belgium, and I believe in neighbouring countries also, denying the Holocaust is a punishable offence.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

I dont really see the benefit of saying its some kind of distinctly "Muslim" notion Lief

It's not limited to Muslims, and it definitely doesn't extend to anywhere near all Muslims. However, it is largely Muslims in the Arab world that are most strongly opposed to Israel, and it is thus largely amidst this part of the Arab Muslim world that the Holocaust denial theory is gaining the most strength.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Denying the Holocaust is, IMO, like living with blinkers on. It's a bit... pathetic to use it as a tool in the Middle-east conflicts. In Belgium, and I believe in neighbouring countries also, denying the Holocaust is a punishable offence.

Yes. Austria recently arrested a British historian named David Irving for denying the Holocaust. It's weird how in some places you can be arrested for a belief that in other places is espoused by the governments. I'm not saying it's bad. Just that it's weird how the world works .

[Earniel]

Yeah, we've got some 'imfamous' Belgian guy constantly denying the Holocaust too. Germany wants him delivered up to be trialed there, last time I heard of him.

Personally I never really understood why it's a punishable offense here. I mean, you're a total loon if you vehemently stick to believing the Holocaust never happened, even with all the remaining evidence still in front of you: the camps, the footage, the pictures, Anne Frank's diary... And you probably deserve to be laughed at publically, but to be jailed over this? Meh, I don't know... People don't get jailed for stupidity in other cases.

[Lotesse]

According to my ex-boyfriend, who was a lieutenant in the IDF - an Israel soldier, that is - for the most part, Egyptians hate Israelis and Israel, and vice versa. So it's no shocking surprise that some fanatical a-holes from Egypt would want to stir up crap that just makes no logical sense, but tries to discredit in any way Israel and Jews in general. IMO, it's not even worth talking about. So what if some little crazy-group wants to go around shouting that the holocaust didn't happen? Only other total raving lunatic idiots would even pretend to agree that this is true. I can't believe this is even a topic of discussion. What's to discuss?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

So what if some little crazy-group wants to go around shouting that the holocaust didn't happen?

This isn't a "little crazy-group". It's the Islamic Muslim Brotherhood, the second to most powerful political party in Egypt. The current ruling party had to close voting booths and assault Brotherhood voters to keep this party from gaining a very powerful position in the Egyptian parliament, it's so strong. The Iranian president has espoused the same view. According to BBC News, holocaust denial is rapidly becoming strong in the Middle East. That makes it automatically an issue worth talking about.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Yeah, we've got some 'imfamous' Belgian guy constantly denying the Holocaust too. Germany wants him delivered up to be trialed there, last time I heard of him.

Personally I never really understood why it's a punishable offense here. I mean, you're a total loon if you vehemently stick to believing the Holocaust never happened, even with all the remaining evidence still in front of you: the camps, the footage, the pictures, Anne Frank's diary... And you probably deserve to be laughed at publically, but to be jailed over this? Meh, I don't know... People don't get jailed for stupidity in other cases.

I'm still not sure what my stance is about whether or not Holocaust deniers should be imprisoned. People argue that it's an assault upon society to deny the Holocaust, and an assault on history. It is, for sure. But is it right to imprison people because of their beliefs? We don't imprison the Ku Klux Klan for beliefs. Neo-Nazis I bet would be permitted to live with their beliefs, so long as they don't seek to use violence and don't incite others to violence. I would have to gain a better understanding of the arguments for or against imprisoning Holocaust deniers, before I could form a position.

[Lotesse]

BELIEFS? The holocaust happened, that is a truth. It's not whether to be believed or not believed, it is an enormous truth. And when such a truth as that is allowed to be DENIED, who's to say history couldn't repeat itself? AND YES, the islamic brotherhood is a CRAZY-GROUP, whether you want to think so or not. They can go party with the Taliban, and the Ku Klux Klan, and all the other crazy-groups.

[Lief Erikson]

I think you and I disagree on very little, on this issue, Lotesse.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

BELIEFS? The holocaust happened, that is a truth.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

It's not whether to be believed or not believed, it is an enormous truth.

I don't understand what you mean when you say, "It's not whether to be believed or not believed." It is true, it has occurred, and some believe that and some don't. And perhaps those who don't believe in this truth should be legally allowed to not believe it, for if we go into thought control as a society, where might that lead?

Originally Posted by Lotesse

And when such a truth as that is allowed to be DENIED, who's to say history couldn't repeat itself?

Good point.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

AND YES, the islamic brotherhood is a CRAZY-GROUP, whether you want to think so or not. They can go party with the Taliban, and the Ku Klux Klan, and all the other crazy-groups.

What I said above was that the Muslim Brotherhood was a powerful group. A large part of its participants are students and youth. It makes strongly pro-democracy statements, though perhaps it will only continue to do so until it gets power. That remains a distinct possibility, to me. The Brotherhood also is Islamist and pretty anti-Israel, and anti-Semitic. So it has a crazy side too, as you say, a side of fundamentalism that seems strong in the Middle East nowadays.

These groups aren't little, though. Many believe that they aren't even minorities in the Middle East, but majorities. Israel recently tried to refuse elections to take place amongst the Palestinians in Eastern Jerusalem, for fear that Hamas would win. Hamas recently made sweeping victories in elections in the West Bank. In Iran, Ahmadinejad led tens of thousands of people in protests, declaring that Israel must cease to exist. These are vast numbers, factions that either control countries or are rapidly gaining enough power to do so. This makes them an issue important enough to discuss and for the very reason you raised: that if such an important truth as the Holocaust is denied, history may repeat itself.

[Pytt]

Wow. Didn't know this was such a big thing. We have especially one guy denying holocaust here in Norway, but he is the leader of some new-nazi organization, very fond of vikings and the old ways. It's quite scary that so many people deny it, I think. I can see why, but nontheless, it's disturbing.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

I don't understand what you mean when you say, "It's not whether to be believed or not believed." It is true, it has occurred, and some believe that and some don't. And perhaps those who don't believe in this truth should be legally allowed to not believe it, for if we go into thought control as a society, where might that lead?

There's a lot of things that are very true, and has happened, which people still denies. Like the moon landing in 1968. I belive it happened, but alot of other peoples don't. And who can say they can't? It's like that with the holocaust denying, but the holocaust denying will give more impact, I think

[Lief Erikson]

Yep, that's true.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Pytt

There's a lot of things that are very true, and has happened, which people still denies. Like the moon landing in 1968. I belive it happened, but alot of other peoples don't. And who can say they can't? It's like that with the holocaust denying, but the holocaust denying will give more impact, I think.

Funny you should mention exactly that. My great-grandmother believed to her death that the moon landing had been faked by the Americans to give the Russians the middle-finger so to speak.

I suppose the distance plays a role, the Holocaust happened here, the evidence is here. The moon landing happened much further away (and in a Holywood studio in America according to my late great-grandmother ). You can't go there and check.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Funny you should mention exactly that. My great-grandmother believed to her death that the moon landing had been faked by the Americans to give the Russians the middle-finger so to speak.

I suppose the distance plays a role, the Holocaust happened here, the evidence is here. The moon landing happened much further away (and in a Holywood studio in America according to my late great-grandmother ). You can't go there and check.

One of the few things in the space race we actually did beat them on! She couldn't even give us that?

[brownjenkins]

it's human nature to believe what you want to believe, and it's far from exclusive to any one group of people... most muslims see the holocaust as a partial justification for the israeli state, something they have always opposed, so a denial is an understandable, though obviously erroneous, stance for them to take

read this article on the history a zionism for a glimpse behind the origins of some of these feelings

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

it's human nature to believe what you want to believe, and it's far from exclusive to any one group of people... most muslims see the holocaust as a partial justification for the israeli state, something they have always opposed, so a denial is an understandable, though obviously erroneous, stance for them to take

I completely agree.

[HOBBIT]

what is the point of this topic?

[Lotesse]

That's pretty much what I have been DYING to ask. This thread really annoys the crap out of me; I don't know why but even seeing the title of it gets me super-annoyed.