Miss, Mrs, Ms, Mr, M

[The Wizard from Milan]

I think it is time to move on from a Mr/Ms greeting to a M greeting.
Two points:
1. in the same way Miss/Mrs was often used in a discriminating way (so Ms was born); the sexed/gendered label is used as a discriminating label
2. in letters and emails, it is often unclear whether A. White or B. Smith is a lady or a gentlement, so it would be much more convenient to reply Dear M White

So let's replace the whole all greetings with M

[Nurvingiel]

Would Mr, Ms, Miss and Mrs be replaced by M?

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by The Wizard from Milan

I think it is time to move on from a Mr/Ms greeting to a M greeting.
Two points:
1. in the same way Miss/Mrs was often used in a discriminating way (so Ms) was born; the sexed/gendered label is now used a discriminating label

Is it? How?

2. in letters and emails, it is often unclear wether A. White or B. Smith is a lady or a gentlement, so it would be much more convenient to reply Dear M White

Then you write 'Dear Sir/Madam' or something (often people's full names are written out anyway.) Maybe it's just me, but I think replacing all of those with 'M' would create even more ambiguities.

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Would Mr, Ms, Miss and Mrs be replaced by M?

Yes, that is what I am proposing

[The Wizard from Milan]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Is it? How?

Because the gender differentiation in the greeting serves no purpose but to remind the female receiver of her sex/gender. Think about it this way: if the societal norm for greetings were to put race "Dear White Mr Jones", "Dear African-American Mr Washington", would that not blatantly be a legacy of discrimination?

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Maybe it's just me, but I think replacing all of those with 'M' would create even more ambiguities.

But ambiguity is good. You want not to know and not to care about the sex/gender of the person you are dealing with for business purposes.

[brownjenkins]

i prefer first name / last name... lose the surnames entirely... everyone always ends up saying, "just call me joe" (unless their name is sam)

[Hasty Ent]

Lose the surname? I agree that the vast majority wind up just using first names, but that's after the initial contact. I always use a first name and a surname in the first letter or phone call without a Mr/Ms/Mrs/Miss, unless there's an honorific involved, e.g. Dear Dr So-and-So or Dear Prof Whatsyername.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Well, I never really looked at this as being a sexually discriminating thing, but more of a way to determine the status of women. Mrs- signifies that this is a married woman. Miss- signifies she is single, and Ms- I believe came out after the women's movement as a title of liberation.

[Andúril]

I think it's stupid.

[rohirrim TR]

i'm torn between BJ's response and anduril's. hmm... i like both of em, but BJ's is funnier, although anduril's is quite funny as well. no decision is a decision (not sure that that saying applies here, but it sounds good )

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Well, I never really looked at this as being a sexually discriminating thing, but more of a way to determine the status of women. Mrs- signifies that this is a married woman. Miss- signifies she is single, and Ms- I believe came out after the women's movement as a title of liberation.

I think you're right about Ms. It's no-one's business but mine what my marital status is. I like Ms.

You can also call me Female White Canadian University Student [Last name] if you want Wizard from Milan, but I might give you a funny look. I would only think you were discriminating if you then said something derogatory about women, Canadians, white people or university students, then I would call you to task.

I don't think indicating gender is the same as being sexist. This is a very interesting thread though.

Girls are usually called Miss, and women are called Ms. Men are called Mr. and boys used to be called Master, but are no longer. I wonder why only that one was dropped?

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Girls are usually called Miss, and women are called Ms. Men are called Mr. and boys used to be called Master, but are no longer. I wonder why only that one was dropped?

Perhaps because it began to sound like you were being deferential to a boy? I don't know, it looks really stupid to me nowadays.

[Sister Golden Hair]

I think there are several reasons for why these terms exist. Aside from the title "Ms" most of these are older than dirt. I doubt that back in the days of Little House on the Prarie and before, that married women would take kindly to being called "Miss". It would also be kind of awkward to refer to a married lady as "Miss" if she was wearing a wedding band. So in a way I think it was meant to be respectful, not degrading.

These terms often and usually signified status, either marital, or financial in cultures.

For males we have: "sir, gentleman, lad, master, mister", and going way back to the old days: "lord"

For females: "lady, mam, madam, miss, ms, mrs", and probably many more

[sun-star]

Mrs and Miss are both abbreviations of Mistress, while Mr is a version of Master. All were just forms of address which have acquired new specific meanings.

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

Well, I never really looked at this as being a sexually discriminating thing, but more of a way to determine the status of women. Mrs- signifies that this is a married woman. Miss- signifies she is single, and Ms- I believe came out after the women's movement as a title of liberation.

The problem is that the honorific for men doesn't describe their marital status. Since we no longer define women's place in society by whether or not they are married, the distinction between Mrs and Ms is less important and potentially discriminatory.

There's no hope of changing it now though. Far too complicated

[Nurvingiel]

LOL Sun-star. Good to see you around!

Originally Posted by Sister Golden Hair

<snip>

These terms often and usually signified status, either marital, or financial in cultures.

For males we have: "sir, gentleman, lad, master, mister", and going way back to the old days: "lord"

For females: "lady, mam, madam, miss, ms, mrs", and probably many more

Don't forget "Dame" for women (the equivelant to Sir) for British people who are knighted. I don't know what the equivelant of knighthood is for women, but these women are called Dames. Knights and Dames are the same "rank", if you will.

Don't forget Dr. for a man or woman with a PhD.

There are also terms from other cultures like "sri" and "sahib". I can't explain their origin or significance though.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

It's no-one's business but mine what my marital status is. I like Ms.

Then why wear a wedding ring?

Originally Posted by sun star

The problem is that the honorific for men doesn't describe their marital status. Since we no longer define women's place in society by whether or not they are married, the distinction between Mrs and Ms is less important and potentially discriminatory.

Well, the thing is that women even in most cases today take the husband's name along with their children. It isn't a matter of defining women in society as married, but differentiating between who is married and who isn't. I don't find that discriminating. The thing with useing the title of "Ms" is that you can be either married or single.

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Don't forget "Dame" for women (the equivelant to Sir) for British people who are knighted. I don't know what the equivelant of knighthood is for women, but these women are called Dames. Knights and Dames are the same "rank", if you will.

The term "Dame" is considered somewhat derogatory.. This may only apply to certian cultures.

We are really talking about pro-nouns.

[Hasty Ent]

In most cases it's likely that women continue to take their husband's name, however, it's undeniable that is changing. The majority of my married female friends retained their surnames.

I've also noticed a decline in the use of all honorifics;with increasing frequency I get letter addressed without any Ms/Mrs/Miss, just my first and last name. I tend to follow the same practice with the exception I mentioned earlier of correspondence with Doctors and Professors.

I prefer Ms, frankly, as do all of my married female friends. Ultimately, what's most important is that the name is spelled correctly. :shrug:

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Hasty Ent

In most cases it's likely that women continue to take their husband's name, however, it's undeniable that is changing. The majority of my married female friends retained their surnames.

I, being from the old school, so to speak, find that a bit sad. I realize things change, but do things have to change to a point that the only way you can differentiate between men and women is by genitalia. I don't know, it just seems to take something away.

What do women do that keep their maiden name after marriage? Do they have everything seperate from their spouse? What is the last name of their children?

If that is the case, I would stay single.


Very thought provoking topic.

[BeardofPants]

I'm a "Ms". I find "miss" to be a bit denigrating... Not overly sure why, but it makes me feel vaguely resentful that for those who choose not to marry, they are differentiated from that of the married. Well, I guess not so much anymore... I guess I just like the lack of differentiation between the status of women who use "Ms". Ugh. I'm sure that I'm not explaining this very well....

[Hasty Ent]

I agree with BoP. (so, what else is new )

As for married friends who keep their own surnames, they don't do anything differently. They are domestic partners in the same sense as those where the woman gives up her name. Those friends of mine who have children gave the kids the father's name. As for everything else, there is truly no difference.

On a related matter, I have recently found that more and more of my straight friends have adopted the term "partner" for their spouses. Historically, that is a word used by homosexual couples but it seems to be cropping up with increasing frequency in the hetero world as well. Personally, I like it. It implies greater equality in my opinion, and better reflects today's relationships.