The Official Language Thread II

[Lalaith]

yup, I know that all of you love to practise the other languages and show off with your abilities.
And I know that we shouldn't spoil other threads with it. So here it is:
The Official Languages Thread!

Post in any language you want to. There will be someone who is able to understand and correct it or even reply.

Ah, I should begin.
I am a native German speaker, so don't hesitate to ask me anything or to write something in German.

[Elemmírë]

Yeah, I have trouble with certain sounds in some languages. I hate the simple U in French (my au-dessous sounds like au-dessus, and the meanings are entirely different! ), and the R, L, whatever it is in Japanese.

Originally Posted by Eärniel

For Linaewen and the other language-minded mooters: A book we all would love to read

Do not forget to read the comments as well, they're cool too.

Originally Posted by Tjaart Kruger, Cambridge, UK

In Afrikaans we sometimes call a stapler, a 'pampiervampier'. Literally, 'paper-vampire' If you look at your stapler and use it, the meaning becomes obvious.

OUCH!

[Elanor]

bedankt. Ik was van plan om de andere thread te lezen, maar ik ben te lui. Nu kan ik iets in het Nederlands zeggen zonder de hele ding te moeten doorlezen.

[Earniel]

Je hoefde de andere thread niet te lezen om iets in het Nederlands te kunnen zeggen. Iedereen praatte er toch door een en in alle mogelijke talen.

[katya]

ElemmÃ*rë-chan! Hisashiburi desu ne! Ogenki? Stil remember your Japanese?

[Elanor]

Has anyone read Lord of the Rings in another language? I want to read the Dutch version but I can't afford it. If you've read one, what did you think of the translation?

[Earniel]

Degene die ik heb is vrij goed. In ieder geval, ik vind dat toch. Mijn vertaling heeft, vind ik, dezelfde sfeer als de originele Engelse tekst. Zelf de gedichten zijn vrij goed vertaald, en ze rijmen nog. Wacht, ik zal een klein stukje eruit nemen:

"Voor ijzer ontdekt werd, boom geveld,
De berg jong was in 't maanverlichte veld;
Eer Ring gemaakt werd, leed bestond,
Dwaalde het door de wouden rond."

[Elanor]

Wat leuk. Ik probeerde om de vertaling in de bibliotheek te vinden. Helaas, hebben zij alleen een boek over het symboliek van 'In de ban van de ring'. Wil dat "In the spell of the ring" zeggen?

[Earniel]

Ik denk dat ik dat boek over symboliek in LoTR eens heb gekregen van mijn zus, ik moet het nog wel lezen.

Ja, 'In de ban van de Ring' kan heel goed vertaald worden als 'In the spell of the Ring' of 'Under the spell of the Ring'.

[Linaewen]

I have a question for you Dutch/Phlegmish () speakers. If you have a name like 'van Ruijven', should the /v/ be capitalised or not in the middle of a sentence? E.g. "Griet could only push van Ruijven away 'as politely a maid can a gentleman.' "
I've been writing it in lower case. I'm not even sure what's right for English, though I might just write the 'v' in my essays somewhere in between so you can't tell.

[Earniel]

If the name is with a small 'v' it should not be capitalised. You can have names like 'van Ruijven' with a small 'v' or with a capital. Mostly it depends on tradition and on how clerks wrote down names in the population registers.

For instance the name 'van Ruijven' will in some families be written 'Van Ruijven', elsewhere it might be 'van Ruijven' and still elsewhere it can be 'Vanruijven'.

(Let me tell you, trying to take Dutch or Belgian names by phone and having to look them up in computer databases will almost always result in the caller having to spell his last name. )

I was always told that 'van' with a small letter indicated some nobility somewhere in the past but I can't be sure.

In any case if the name is written with a smal 'v', it will always remain a small 'v'. There is always a capital in a last name but it isn't necessarily the first word. And the capitals or lower cases normally don't change in sentences.

[Linaewen]

Dankjewel, Eärniel. Very interesting indeed. Yeesh, you Dutch speakers really like to complicate things, don't you? Though probably not as much as Icelanders, whose surnames are derived from their father's (or mother's) first name, so their phonebooks are alphabetised by given name.

[Earniel]

It's not that we try to complicate things further (although at times even I suspect some do ) it's more a left-over from tradition and out-dated language. In Dutch the letter combinations 'uij', 'uy' or 'ck' are almost only found in last names since the spelling of the common words has evolved (and simplified) over the years.

[Linaewen]

Hehe, English is full of those kind of archaic spellings that we cling to. Just look at our appallingly non-phonetic spelling system. Kudos to any non-native who can spell my language well. ^^
You know, Indonesian names have some Dutch spelling from the colonisation era, though the rest of the language was simplified. My friend wrote this yesterday to show me:
A: Saja soedah toea dan tidak poenja banjak oeang... Beroeangkah kamoe?
B: Saja boekan beroeang. Saja manoesia biasa...

Now it would be written:
A: Saya sudah tua dan tidak punya banyak uang. Beruangkah kamu?
B: Saya bukan beruang. Saya manusia biasa...

Translation:
A: I'm already old and don't have money (beruang). Do you have money?
B: I'm not a bear. I'm a normal person...
(It plays on the pun that 'Beruangkah kamu?' means both 'Do you have money?' and 'Are you a bear?'. Ok, maybe it's not as funny if you don't know the language)

Anyway, it looks really odd to anyone who is used to the newer way of spelling and the Dutch spelling of Indo even makes me feel queasy, much like Dutch spelling of Dutch.

[Earniel]

It looks okay to me, but I suppose some Aussies are on the sensitive side when it comes to foreign spelling.

I suppose with the 'u' instead of the Dutch 'oe' the writing looks more exotic. Which is probably why they changed it, yes.

I like the pun. A language that has the same sentence for ' Do you have money' and "Are you a bear' should have gone into that book about languages that was mentioned earlier in the thread. Are bears rich animals in Indonesia?

[Linaewen]

I'm not sensitive to foreign spelling. If I were, it'd be problematic being a language freak, niet waar? I feel uncomfortable when languages are spelt in ways I'm not used to. Read this plan about implementing an English spelling reform:

For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased
either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet.
The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation,
which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which"
and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y"
replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.
Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing
awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and
the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi
posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a
memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th"
rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a
lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

...howzat?

I suppose with the 'u' instead of the Dutch 'oe' the writing looks more exotic. Which is probably why they changed it, yes.

Well, they only started writing in Roman letters after the Dutch colonisation, so of course they adopted Dutch spelling. Not because it was exotic. It's not exotic, it's ugly. KIDDING!

I like the pun. A language that has the same sentence for ' Do you have money' and "Are you a bear' should have gone into that book about languages that was mentioned earlier in the thread. Are bears rich animals in Indonesia?

Hehe, me too. That's probably why Indonesians may steer clear of asking 'Do you have money' like that, they it's probably clear from the context that you're not asking if someone is a bear.
Of course the bears are rich! Beruang = beruang --> bear = have money

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Well, they only started writing in Roman letters after the Dutch colonisation, so of course they adopted Dutch spelling. Not because it was exotic. It's not exotic, it's ugly. KIDDING!

You misunderstood me. I meant that 'oe' would be common, since that's a left-over form colonisation times. In comparision the 'u' is more exotic and probably fits more with the image the country wants to project on visiting tourists. See? So much for my wacky theories anyway...

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

You misunderstood me. I meant that 'oe' would be common, since that's a left-over form colonisation times. In comparision the 'u' is more exotic and probably fits more with the image the country wants to project on visiting tourists. See? So much for my wacky theories anyway...

Ha, so I did. Very sorry. I don't know how I understood what I did. I blame it on the imminent exams.
I was about to write a whole spiel about how Indonesian doesn't have any 2 letter combinations for the one sound anymore (except for diphthongs), so that's probably why they got rid of the /oe/, /tj/ and /dj/, but then I realised they have /sy/ for English /sh/ (though I think that's two sounds meshed together, according to the IPA for it), and /kh/ for Dutch 'g' (from Arabic.) And they also changed /j/ to /y/. So maybe they changed it to be more similar to the English alphabet. Which is funny, because considering how many sounds an English letter can be, you can 'read' Indonesian using the wrong English sounds for each letter and it can sound soooooo bad. Actually, English speakers tend to fall into traps with Indo pronunciation because it sounds similar superficially, but if you've heard it enough, like I have, the differences between the pronunciations of our /j/ and theirs, and their /c/ and our /ch/ are quite obvious. Maybe I just have an ear for Indo. I sure as hell don't have one for Dutch and Swedish. (So much for being a Germanic girl)

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Linaewen

Ha, so I did. Very sorry. I don't know how I understood what I did. I blame it on the imminent exams.

Best of luck then, with those exams. Go get them girl!

So maybe they changed it to be more similar to the English alphabet. Which is funny, because considering how many sounds an English letter can be, you can 'read' Indonesian using the wrong English sounds for each letter and it can sound soooooo bad.

Considering that Dutch is spoken less and less world-wide and loses speakers in favour of English, it would indeed have made sense if the Indonesians changed their alphabet accordingly. But if, as you say, English sounds and Indonesian ones are not always alike, it is indeed sort of funny.

Maybe I just have an ear for Indo. I sure as hell don't have one for Dutch and Swedish. (So much for being a Germanic girl)

Aw, don't be disapointed. I don't have a feeling for French either, even if I have had French lessons longer than English ones and that French is Belgium's second official language.

Dutch is just a very difficult language, I think, if you start out from English. Besides, it's not like they teach Dutch (or Swedish) at your school, isn't it?

[Linaewen]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Best of luck then, with those exams. Go get them girl!

Dank je. My Indonesian oral exam is in less than a week and Indo has so taken over my mind that when people talk to me in English, I almost reply in Indonesian. Sometimes I mix the languages...it's convenient using Indo words.

Aw, don't be disapointed. I don't have a feeling for French either, even if I have had French lessons longer than English ones and that French is Belgium's second official language.

How often is French spoken in Flanders? How much of your TV is in French? Curious.

Besides, it's not like they teach Dutch (or Swedish) at your school, isn't it?

True, probably if I were exposed to it as much as Indo, I'd pick up the sounds. I think less than 11 people in the entire state study Dutch or Swedish at my level. We need more Northern Europeans!