Origins, and Implications of Origins

[Rían]

I started a thread on the proposed changes to the Kansas science curriculum, where the proposed changes were to correct what I think (and more and more people are thinking) are imbalances in the presentation of the theory of evolution (they want to make sure some of the mainstream, peer-reviewed criticisms of the theory are taught - gasp! )

What absolutely fascinated me was the tone of the responses, across the whole nation and even in other nations, of many of those against the changes. It was hysterical, bullying, name-calling, doomsday predicting, condescending, belittling, schoolyard-taunting - in short, everything but scientific.

Why? Why?
There must be a logical reason why proposed changes to scientific curriculum in one certain area - evolution - are being discussed worldwide, in such a passionate manner, when other changes ... aren't.

It fascinated me, so I started a thread to discuss it. Since then, the thread got merged with another thread, and what I wanted to talk about has been kind of buried, and also I think the merged thread title doesn't accurately reflect what I wanted to discuss, so I"m starting this thread specifically to discuss why I (and others) think the responses against the changes had the character and tone that they did.

In short, I think it's because evolution has something to say about our origins. And what a person believes about their origins has a ripple effect in many, MANY areas of their life.

I think there's 4 questions that most people consider in some form at some time:

1. Where did I come from? (origin)
2. Where am I going? (destiny)
3. Why am I here? (purpose)
4. How shall I live? (morality)

And the answer to the first one affects the answers to all the rest of them.

And that shakes people up.

What do you guys think?


* * * * EDIT * * * *
I guess I didn't say things clearly enough, and there were some misunderstandings about the thread focus.
Here's what I wrote later on to explain more what I was wanting to discuss in this thread:

Originally Posted by Rian

I don't give a RIP about the validity of what a person thinks about their origin in this thread. I don't care if it's supported by 10 facts or 10,000 facts - or no facts!

On this thread, I want to think about and discuss this: given the premise of a particular belief about your origin, what deductions do you draw from it that affect your daily behavior and choices? And how valid (in terms of logical analysis) are those deductions?

So what I do NOT want to get into here is a discussion of the validity of evidence for a particular origin belief. There's already evidence threads around. What I DO want to discuss with anyone that would like to is how our origin beliefs affect our daily life and choices, if it does at all.

[brownjenkins]

in a nutshell i think people generally believe in what they were brought up by their parents and peers to believe, be it any certain religion or even the lack of... and once these beliefs are formed during childhood and beyond, they are very resistant to change

science attempts to take the "belief" out of the picture, and only theorize based upon things we can observe... the world around us... but even scientists are susceptible to giving "biblical" status to certain theories 'cause they seem to work so well

that said, the basis of science is change... so, in the end, most usually do come around

the basis of religion, on the other hand, is tradition and stability... so change is often unlikely, and sometimes impossible... especially in belief systems where a certain ancient text is seen as infallible... which implies that even one inaccuracy brings the whole thing down

but i think that most people on both sides are much more reasonable (i hope at least ) ... and float somewhere in the middle, willing to give each side their say and interpret it for themselves... but it is still the squeaky wheels that get the grease

[Rían]

I'm not talking about the relative strengths and weaknesses of science and religion, tho, or what areas they apply to - I'm only saying that thinking the theory of evolution is true allows people to draw conclusions about their origin from a certain subset of all possible ideas - IOW, it affects what possibilities people will consider for their origins. Many people have said the theory has removed objections they had to atheism. And an atheist obviously has a subset of ideas to choose from about origins that do NOT include a god.

What I'm saying is that evolution has implications about people's origins, and what you believe about your origin affects what you believe about some other important things, so I think that's why it's such a volatile subject, as evidenced by the analysis of the flying rhetoric!

Originally Posted by brownie

the basis of religion, on the other hand, is tradition and stability...

Maybe for some, but not for me.

[Insidious Rex]

So is this thread about evolution or "origins"?

[Rían]

hmm, let's see if I can word it better - it was started because of a specific incident - the Kansas thing - that got me thinking about origins.

It's about discussing how what a person believes their origins are affect other areas in their life. Or something like that (and it might change - I like to follow a good rabbit trail, as my title shows!)

[brownjenkins]

i think most if not all develop...

4. How shall I live? (morality)

way before they even consider the other three...

1. Where did I come from? (origin)
2. Where am I going? (destiny)
3. Why am I here? (purpose)

i've seen it in all three of my children... morality comes from life experience

the other three are things we like to muse about, but don't really effect 4. at all... they might be used as a justification, but that is after the fact

i.e. ~ two individuals can be nearly identical on 4. and have radically different ideas about 1., 2., and 3.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

i think most if not all develop...

[4. How shall I live? (morality) ]

way before they even consider the other three...

But I really don't think it's that simple... (see next part)

i've seen it in all three of my children... morality comes from life experience

yes, but life experience interpreted through a worldview belief that involves origins (in the case of your kids, the worldview of you and your wife.)
For example, life experience would teach us that I can get away with stealing from my younger sibling, and what I stole is very enjoyable to me, so that if I can get away with stealing, it's good for me.

the other three are things we like to muse about, but don't really effect 4. at all... they might be used as a justification, but that is after the fact

Hang with me here a moment - this is what I mean -
ALL of us make GUESSES (hopefully educated, thoughtful ones) about what our origins are. None of us KNOW what our origins truly were; we have to make a best guess based on available input. And most of us have a belief as to what we think is most likely. So here's some examples of how different beliefs as to our origins affect questions 2, 3 and 4:

Example 1 - if someone believes that the Bible is true, as thousands of intelligent people have, then it would be perfectly logical for them to believe that these are the answers to those questions:
1. I was created by God;
2. I will spend my lifetime on earth, then eternity in either heaven or hell, based upon my own personal choices here on earth;
3. To love and enjoy God and others;
4. In accordance with what our loving, all-knowing designer tells us, for our absolute best and highest happiness.

Example 2 - if someone goes to a biology class and hears (wrongly) that evolution is a fact, and they believed that wild idea (sorry, couldn't resist! ) - um, and they believed it, as thousands of intelligent people have, then it would be perfectly logical for them to believe that these are the answers:
1. No one created me; I'm here as a result of chance (i.e., a series of beneficial mutations) and survival of the fittest;
2. I'll spend my lifetime on earth; if I'm lucky I'll live long and prosper, if I'm not I'll live short and be miserable (or worse, live long and be miserable), then when I die I'll cease to exist, so my choices here do not have any eternal consequence to me;
3. For no particular purpose, because of the above 2 answers;
4. However I think best. If I want to do what society currently calls "good" then I shouldn't get in trouble; if I want to do what society currently calls "bad" then I might get into trouble; and things happen by chance. I happen to usually like doing what society currently calls good, so I'll do it except when I don't feel like doing it.

i.e. ~ two individuals can be nearly identical on 4. and have radically different ideas about 1., 2., and 3.

absolutely, yet I think I can show some differences, and frankly I think the similarities are also worth analyzing. But let's go over the other stuff first to get some groundwork down.

I'll put two more possible scenarios down in the next post because this one is getting too long!

[Curubethion]

Example 1 - if someone believes that the Bible is true, as thousands of intelligent people have, then it would be perfectly logical for them to believe that these are the answers to those questions:
1. I was created by God;
2. I will spend my lifetime on earth, then eternity in either heaven or hell, based upon my own personal choices here on earth;
3. To love and enjoy God and others;
4. In accordance with what our loving, all-knowing designer tells us, for our absolute best and highest happiness.

Example 2 - if someone goes to a biology class and hears (wrongly) that evolution is a fact, and they believed that wild idea (sorry, couldn't resist! ) - um, and they believed it, as thousands of intelligent people have, then it would be perfectly logical for them to believe that these are the answers:
1. No one created me; I'm here as a result of chance (i.e., a series of beneficial mutations) and survival of the fittest;
2. I'll spend my lifetime on earth; if I'm lucky I'll live long and prosper, if I'm not I'll live short and be miserable (or worse, live long and be miserable), then when I die I'll cease to exist, so my choices here do not have any eternal consequence to me;
3. For no particular purpose, because of the above 2 answers;
4. However I think best. If I want to do what society currently calls "good" then I shouldn't get in trouble; if I want to do what society currently calls "bad" then I might get into trouble; and things happen by chance. I happen to usually like doing what society currently calls good, so I'll do it except when I don't feel like doing it.

The number 4's for both aren't really the same. One feels a true sense of morality. The other is just "conforming" to get something done.

[Rían]

Here's a few more examples:

Example 3 - if someone believes that we just don't have enough info to make a valid conclusion about whether or not god/gods exist, as thousands of intelligent people have, then it would be perfectly logical for them to believe that these are the answers to those questions:
1. I don't know;
2. I don't know;
3. I don't know;
4. However I feel like living.

Example 4 - if someone believes that the Bible is true, as thousands of intelligent people have, then it would be perfectly logical for them to believe that these are the answers to those questions:
1. I was created by God;
2. I will spend eternity in heaven or hell, based upon my choices made here on earth;
3. to love and enjoy God and others;
4. However I feel like living, because I don't want to do what God says is right if it clashes with my own current desires, and if I spend eternity in hell, so be it. But it does make me a little nervous, because hell doesn't sound like such a great place to spend eternity...

Example 5 - if someone goes to a biology class and hears (wrongly) that evolution is a fact, and they believed it, as thousands of intelligent people have, then it would be perfectly logical for them to believe that these are the answers:
1. No one created me; I'm here as a result of chance (i.e., a series of beneficial mutations) and survival of the fittest;
2. I'll spend my lifetime on earth; if I'm lucky I'll live long and prosper, if I'm not I'll live short and be miserable (or worse, live long and be miserable), then when I die I'll cease to exist, so my choices here do not have any eternal consequence to me;
3. For no particular purpose, because of the above 2 answers;
4. However I think best. And because my name is Jeffrey Dahmer, what I think is best for me is to kill and eat children, even though I know I might be caught. My desire to do this is stronger than my fear of the consequences, and since there's no eternity where I'll have to face the consequences of my choice forever, I'll just go for it.


SO - do you see what I mean by how our thoughts about our origins affect those other 3 questions? I'm not saying we stop and think about it at every decision, but when we were learning to make decisions, our parents told us how to interpret experience according to their worldview, and that becomes our default, unless and until we come to believe a different worldview is more likely. This is clearly true, because when people "convert" to a different worldview, their motives and lifestyles often change!


Thoughts, anyone?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Curubethion

The number 4's for both aren't really the same. One feels a true sense of morality. The other is just "conforming" to get something done.

I agree; they may look the same outwardly, but the inward motivation and reasoning behind it is different. As CS Lewis pointed out, if we're in a bus and leave our seat to get something and someone sits down in our seat, we're only truly angry with them if they did it knowing that it was someone else's seat. And if an evil person tries to do evil but doesn't achieve it because of incompetence, we still wouldn't praise him.

[Jonathan]

I think you have a good point RÃ*an and that the origin we beleive we have might affect people's morality even. Not all people, but some.

You asked why evolution is discussed more than other issues and like you, I believe it's because it says something about our origin. But not in the way you described.

People listen to a clergyman. Some of the people (maybe not all) decide that the earth is flat.
Other people listen to a scientist. Some of the people (maybe not all) decide that the earth is round.
It isn't hard to show evidence to the flat-earth believers that the planet is in fact round, so there is no discussion.

Now intelligent design and evolution are different. Many religious people believe in the first and many non-religious people believe in the second. See, when it comes to our origin, it is harder to prove anything, basically because the average John Doe cannot go back in time and see his origin for himself. He has to rely to either what religion or science tells him. Since proof for either of the two sides is usually hard to comprehend, the only way to try and convince the other side that you are right is through discussion. That's why evolution vs intelligent design is such a debated topic and that's why the established fact that the earth is round isn't discussed.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

4. However I think best. And because my name is Jeffrey Dahmer, what I think is best for me is to kill and eat children, even though I know I might be caught. My desire to do this is stronger than my fear of the consequences, and since there's no eternity where I'll have to face the consequences of my choice forever, I'll just go for it.

Lol! Don't you think higher of us atheists than that?

[littleadanel]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

See, when it comes to our origin, it is harder to prove anything, basically because the average John Doe cannot go back in time and see his origin for himself. He has to rely to either what religion or science tells him. Since proof for either of the two sides is usually hard to comprehend, the only way to try and convince the other side that you are right is through discussion.

Harder to prove indeed! And what will a girl do, having no religious background behind her, and not finding the theory of evolution satisfying enough either? Trying to feel the way in the dark, according to the feelings and experiences of her 19 years...

My grandpa and grandma are Christians, but it somehow died out from their daily life. (I will not talk about the part of our history they had to live through, and how the religions were treated then, and how they, both being teachers, in some cases had to say and teach things they believed to be untrue.) And only my granny left for me to talk about such things, my grandpa died 7 years ago Anyway, my mom and aunt weren't brought up as Christians, and from the other branch of the family, my dad either, and so me either. And sometimes I feel so much the need of the certainity of things, what a religion can give...

Because you see, I have been to several biology and history classes, but simply couldn't fully believe what I was told. Um, well, couldn't believe it at all. From the very beginning, it seemed far too chaotic for me. Every book said a different thing, and from every teacher's tone I heard they were saying what they studied and were supposed to say, not what they really meant or believed. So why should I accept it as it is said? But finding something to believe in, on your own, is the hardest thing. Theory of evolution, in its "official" and "accepted" form, as available for children or students, is nothing but a mess. And there are several proofs, new or not so new discoveries getting very little possibilities to be published, which prove it to be completely untrue and senseless. So the side of scientists have enough questions and contradictions to deal with.

One day we may find the answers, and we might have a completed scientific theory to discuss. (Not very likely, I know; but maybe, maybe. ) But not for all the questions, even then; at least IMO. Even if we manage to trace back time until the very first being that can be called human, HOW had it become different from the generation before? I mean, a gene gone through mutation and that's all? I have to admit, for my little mind it's... well... too few. All these wonderful and, yes, terrible things the human race was and is capable of, ALL and EVERYHING is the result of one accident? It's just... I mean, there must be something... more behind it.

You see, I can't answer, I can only ask. Most of the time when I start thinking about this, I end up like this: confused and rather dizzy.

And since I spent my morning with writing this, and am sitting at the computer in nightgown and with wet hair, while having only 20 minutes left before leaving home, I suppose I post & go hope my thoughts weren't too obscure. Probably coming back here at the end of the day to have a look. Thanks for your patience!

adanel

[Jonathan]

Originally Posted by littleadanel

You see, I can't answer, I can only ask. Most of the time when I start thinking about this, I end up like this: confused and rather dizzy.

RÃ*an started this thread to discuss how a person's claimed origin affects their life. I'm wondering, in your case, how does not being sure about your origin affect your life? Does it at all?

[Spock]

What if everything is an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet.- Woody Allen

What if everything you all are saying is wrong from a universal perspective. It then becomes MOOT.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by littleadanel

Theory of evolution, in its "official" and "accepted" form, as available for children or students, is nothing but a mess. And there are several proofs, new or not so new discoveries getting very little possibilities to be published, which prove it to be completely untrue and senseless.

Which "proofs" are these exactly?

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

SO - do you see what I mean by how our thoughts about our origins affect those other 3 questions? I'm not saying we stop and think about it at every decision, but when we were learning to make decisions, our parents told us how to interpret experience according to their worldview, and that becomes our default, unless and until we come to believe a different worldview is more likely. This is clearly true, because when people "convert" to a different worldview, their motives and lifestyles often change!

what you are missing is the obvious answer to "How shall I live? (morality)" ... we are part of a society of other human beings and how we relate to them during our time here directly effects how much we will enjoy our own lives

to put it bluntly, there are thousands of good reasons to not be a jeffrey dahmer aside from whether you might end up in heaven or hell or nowhere when you die

as i've said before there are both good and bad people who prescribe to every worldview that exists... people choose the worldview that they can best shape to their beliefs, not the other way around

and history has show time and again that two people can choose the exact same worldview and shape them quite differently

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by littleadanel

You see, I can't answer, I can only ask. Most of the time when I start thinking about this, I end up like this: confused and rather dizzy.

great thoughts adanel!

while i may go back and forth with rÃ*an from time to time about religion vs. agnosticism (or anything in between), i think they can all be extremely valid ways to find meaning and enjoyment out of life... just follow what feels right to you, because you are correct... chances are none of us will ever know the true answers anyway

and remember that the greatest meaning in life (at least in my PoV), comes from the people around you who you care for and who care for you... real world stuff that doesn't depend on the answers to those other big questions

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by littleadanel

But finding something to believe in, on your own, is the hardest thing.

Oh, so true, so true. LittleAdanel, I just loved your post.

[Snowdog]

I think there's 4 questions that most people consider in some form at some time:
1. Where did I come from? (origin)
2. Where am I going? (destiny)
3. Why am I here? (purpose)
4. How shall I live? (morality)

I think these basic questions need to be expanded upon some, for it is I think these questions are asked in a spiritual or soul-searching way.

Number 1 can be a physical or spiritual question. For physically, I (1.) originated from an intimate moment my parents had, and (2.) I live through every day of my life heading for the day I die and my body is disposed of either by burial or cremation. Spiritually, number 1 and number 2 its a bit more complex. Number 3 and number 4 are spiritualquestions already.

Number 4 directly affects number 2, and number 3 is the ultimate of soul searching questions I think every person deals with, usually in those quiet moments when one is alone.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

Lol! Don't you think higher of us atheists than that?

I think very, VERY highly of many atheists I think many atheists are FAR more moral than many theists! I would trust my kids to some atheists I know, and NOT with some theists I know!

Does that set that record straight?

What my example #5 was trying to illustrate was that there was no LOGICAL reason against drawing Dahmer's conclusion! (given that what he wanted to do was a stronger desire than the fear of the consequences he thought would happen) Would you agree with that?