Mouth of Sauron!

[JTB]

This is a thread for Mouth of Sauron fans! WHO'S WITH ME??!!

( Plus I'm just trying to become an Enting.)

Well, not a fan of the character, but I thought the film did a good job portraying him. Nice touch with the mouth. I only wish Aragorn hadn't beheaded him. Though I imagine the duel of wills that took place in the book would be difficult to portray.

[Andúril]

Padlock!

[durinsbane2244]

ok, well, respecting your wish to escape hobbitdom, i was wondering [insert long question that would take many posts to answer here], but yes, i do like the character

[rohirrim TR]

well i am curious as to what the lifespan of the mouth of sauron was because it says in the book that he was a black numenorean so I wonder if he knew enough black magic that he was immortal or if he was just a mortal man who was only a tool of sauron

[Harad]

In the book the character life span was inconsistent and didn't make sense. CT tried to trace it in various re-writings but could never make sense of it. He started out as Nazgul, btw.

In the movie that scene was a disgrace. PJ would rather insert one his favorites, a beheading, at the expense of Aragorn's honor. Not really nice, to behead an envoy during a parley.

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Harad

In the movie that scene was a disgrace. PJ would rather insert one his favorites, a beheading, at the expense of Aragorn's honor. Not really nice, to behead an envoy during a parley.

That's a really good point; you're right, it WAS a dishonourable thing to do, even if Mouth was a creepy bad guy. Aragorn would never have done such a thing, I think. Typical PJ. Ah, well.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by rohirrim TR

well i am curious as to what the lifespan of the mouth of sauron was because it says in the book that he was a black numenorean so I wonder if he knew enough black magic that he was immortal or if he was just a mortal man who was only a tool of sauron

It is stated clearly in LOTR that he was a mortal!

The Mouth worked for Sauron for about 70 years, since his return to Mordor (since the Black Tower first arose again -in TA 2951), so he was not an old man (by Numenorean standards). He might have been the age of Aragorn.

Somehow people tend to think that a "Black Numenorean" was a Second age term only, so any Black Numenorean would be over 3000 years old. But it is not so. Actually, Black Numenoreans were a people of Numenorean origin living in Harad (and probably in Mordor as well) throughout the III age. Some of the rulers of Harad were Black Numenoreans.
There were many Numenoreans living in ME at the time of the Downfall, and so they survived. Some were "king's men", called Black Numenoreans, worshipping Morgoth and refusing to speak elvish. The others were "the faithful", still honoring the Valar and Eru, even after the Downfall. The faithful joined Isildur and Anarion and were the base of Gondor population. All Numenoreans were proud of their origin and tried not to mingle with lesser men. In the north, people of Numenorean descent were called "dunedain" = "men of the west" in Elvish. Some black numenoreans allied themselves with Sauron, others probably put the blame of Numenor's downfall both on Sauron and the Valar and so remained more or less neutral in Harad. Umbar corsairs were descendants of Black Numenoreans. Queen Beruthiel was a Black Numenorean. Mouth of Sauron was one also.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Harad

He started out as Nazgul, btw.

Not exactly true, as Tolkien at first planned the Messenger from Mordor to be none other than the Witch-King himself. He also planned for the WK to appear at Sammath Naur (before Frodo could destroy the Ring) and say " Here we will all perish together" or something along those lines.

At first Tolkien didn't think that the meeting with Eowyn would be so desastrous for the Witchy. But then he decided she had to destroy him, so he removed the WK from the end of the story.

So Mouth was not planned as a nazgul, he just took the place previously meant for the WK. And, I think, that's why it was clearly said " ...but he was not a nazgul but a mortal Man"...

[Harad]

Originally Posted by gordis

Not exactly true, as Tolkien at first planned the Messenger from Mordor to be none other than the Witch-King himself.

What part of "He started out as a Nazgul" is contradicted by this statement?

[Jon S.]

I actually like most of PJ's movie changes but that beheading is indefensible.

[rohirrim TR]

PJ should have made it a duel between aragorn and the mouth (just like in the video game hee hee )

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by gordis

... Umbar corsairs were descendants of Black Numenoreans...

On this one point - from the Appendix A account, it sounds more like the Corsairs are descendants of Castamir and his followers -although of course I think they intermingled with the Black Numenoreans already in Umbar. However - that actually makes their leaders descended from Anarion... from Elendil!

Very good information about Black Numenoreans otherwise - and I pretty well agree with it.

[Gordis]

Thank you, Valandil. I can recommend a very good site about the Black Numenoreans and the Men of Darkness in general:

http://people.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~...en/Fr_Men.html

As for Corsairs, I believe they were Black Numenoreans intermingled with ME men, before Castamir and his followers came to join them. Afrer all, Tarannon and Umbardacil had to battle the Corsairs, and that was well before Castamir.

And yes, Castamir's descendants, being descended by PATRILINEAL descent from Anarion, had more rights to the crown of Gondor, than the descendants of Isildur. But, perhaps, they have died out by Aragorn's times, or simply forfeited their rights to the throne by their association with Men of Darkness...

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by gordis

...As for Corsairs, I believe they were Black Numenoreans intermingled with ME men, before Castamir and his followers came to join them. Afrer all, Tarannon and Umbardacil had to battle the Corsairs, and that was well before Castamir.

And yes, Castamir's descendants, being descended by PATRILINEAL descent from Anarion, had more rights to the crown of Gondor, than the descendants of Isildur. But, perhaps, they have died out by Aragorn's times, or simply forfeited their rights to the throne by their association with Men of Darkness...

I definitely agree... further, it went beyond Umbar. I think there were several Numenorean havens further south of there. Pelargir and Umbar were the two northernmost of the ones that saw lots of activity between Numenor and Middle earth toward the last centuries of Numenor, as I understand it.

For that last, most likely either died out or forfeited, I'd say. Remember too that Aragorn had saved Gondor, so he had the combined individual claims of his ancestor Arvedui and of General Earnil. An enemy, even descended from Elendil, would not be considered.

However - and I've been wondering about this for awhile and the movie forum isn't the best place for it... but Olmer might make a good claim that Aragorn's purpose in serving Ecthelion (as Thorongil) was fulfilled when he led the raid on Umbar and personally 'overthrew' (I'm sure he slew him) the Captain of the Havens... who may have been the reigning descendant of Castamir. He may have just been out to get rid of a potential rival claimant (esp if Umbar would switch sides and try to 'come to Gondor's rescue')

After all - Aragorn left Gondor's army immediately after that, didn't he? He didn't even have to go back to Minas Tirith and celebrate... just move on to the next thing.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

However - and I've been wondering about this for awhile and the movie forum isn't the best place for it... but Olmer might make a good claim that Aragorn's purpose in serving Ecthelion (as Thorongil) was fulfilled when he led the raid on Umbar and personally 'overthrew' (I'm sure he slew him) the Captain of the Havens... who may have been the reigning descendant of Castamir. He may have just been out to get rid of a potential rival claimant (esp if Umbar would switch sides and try to 'come to Gondor's rescue')
After all - Aragorn left Gondor's army immediately after that, didn't he? He didn't even have to go back to Minas Tirith and celebrate... just move on to the next thing.

A very good point, Valandil. Aragorn was desperate to become King, it was the condition for marrying Arwen. I think he came to Gondor to see for himself if it was possible to claim the throne. He saw that the Stewards would never accept him without a major war to be won first. He had to come as a savior, not as a beggar. And, of course, he was interested to get rid of a potential rival claimant at Umbar, the one with a better claim than his own.

BTW, Val, do you know where is our Olmer? Has he gone for good? The Moot is dull without him...

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by gordis

BTW, Val, do you know where is our Olmer? Has he gone for good? The Moot is dull without him...

I do not know where he is or why he has stayed away for so long - but I doubt that he has gone for good.

He has been a member for some time, and has had protracted absences before. I do hope that he comes back myself.

[JTB]

In the VG, they have a fight? I mean, Aragorn and MoS? If they do, SWEET!

[Rosie Gamgee]

For one, I do not like the movie version of the Mouth at all. I don't really know if this is because I don't like him, or because he's not the guy from the books... I think it's mostly because he's not the guy from the book. And because that whole scene was STUPID. Gandy, Aragorn, Mouth.. everyone was horrible. Crappily done scene.

[Rconsole]

Originally Posted by Rosie Gamgee

For one, I do not like the movie version of the Mouth at all. I don't really know if this is because I don't like him, or because he's not the guy from the books... I think it's mostly because he's not the guy from the book. And because that whole scene was STUPID. Gandy, Aragorn, Mouth.. everyone was horrible. Crappily done scene.

completely agree with all of the above, is it just me or was his head to big for his shoulders...anyway ya that scene could have been good...