Arhturian Themes in the Lord of the Rings

[durinsbane2244]

arhturian themes, in the lord of the rings, the title says it all, but wait, there's more, i have thought of a few:

-Aragorn as King Arhtur, Arhtur being "ill-begotten", Aragorn being a ranger for so long and not being "kingly".

-Gandalf as Merlin, Merlin being advisor to the king and facing evils, than leaving Arthur to do his own work, Gandalf being advisor and helper to Aragorn, (and others before him, which Merlin did also), than leaving him at Moria, than showing up again,(Merlin's many travels), and than showing up at the crucial moment, and than leaving him for good, like Merlin.

-The Council of Elrond was the Round Table of the LotR, meeting place and where they made they're decisions, selecting who would go on the ultimate quest, and it was a circle!

-The Quest itself, being the counterpart to the quest for the Holy Grail, if anyone has read the Holy Grail quest,(which I;m sure you have), you will see that not all of them made it, and that some were killed or turned back, or wwent to other quests, which happens it the LotR! Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn go to the help of Merry and Pippen, which in turn leads to the salvation of both Rohan and Gondor, also freeing the dead guys, which could be seen as the healing of the Maimed King,< again for those of you who've read it, Boromir is slain, and only the chosen three, Sam, Frodo, and yes, Smeagol, are granted entry to the Black Land and Mount Doom, liiiike, Galahad, Bors, and Percival, they all eventually end up in Valinor, except for Smeagol, who goes INTO the fire of Mount Doom, now, Bors and Percival ended up priests, but Galahad died by again going INTO the Mystery of the Grail.

-This one isn't as big, but Mordred, pretty much the untimate evil and downfall of Arthur, starts with MOR, liiiike, MORdor, and MORgoth, so evil+MOR.

WOW! I feel great! PLEASE KEEP THIS ONE GOING!!!

[durinsbane2244]

Yeah, I spelled his name wrong. . .3 times, but also:

-Camalot was a famous place, as was Gondor.

-The peasants of Arthurs time knew stories about him, and the citizens of Gondor had stories of the king that would come, " the hands of the king are the hands of a healer".

-Arhtur faced the common enemy of the Saxons, Aragorn the forces of Mordor, orcs and them.

-2 words: Excalibur, Anduril.

[Nurvingiel]

Interesting DB, you have a lot of good comparisons there. It hadn't occured to me to line up LotR with Arthurian legends.

The analogy does fall down in a few places though. I think the Quest to destroy the Ring is only comparable to the Quest for the Holy Grail in two ways.
First, and this one is a bit weak, only Frodo and Sam made it to the end of the Quest. You could compare them to Bors, Galahad and Percivale who were the only knights able to find the Grail.
Lancelot very nearly found the Grail, but failed in the end. You could make a very loose comparison between him and Lancelot.
The reason this one is weak is the reasons for success on the Quest are competely different.
The second point is the goal of both the Quests is similar. The Knights wanted to save Arthur and Camelot, and the Fellowship wanted to save all Middle-earth.

[Gordis]

I should say there is more difference then similarities.

Hmm, Gandalf as Merlin...
Who is then Viviane? Galadriel?
And Gandalf gone mad and wandering in the woods? And imprisoned in a cave by his Viviane?
No, the life of poor Gandalf was sooo dull in comparison…

[Nurvingiel]

I agree that there are more differences than similarities, but comparing the few solid analogies is interesting.

I think you're confusing Vivian with Nimue though. Nimue is the one who imprisonned Merlin in the Crystal Caves, not Vivian. Though, I don't know how close Vivian would compare to Galadrial... (I'm thinking The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley here. )

If Aragorn is Arthur, which I can see to a point anyway, then Arwen would have to be Guinevere. Then again, maybe Aragorn isn't very Arthurian. I'm sitting the fence on this one. But...

Aragorn's father Arathorn II did die young, like Uther did. Aragorn's mother survived his father and brought him to safety, as did Arthur's mother Igraine who gave Arthur into Merlin's care.

Then maybe that would make Elrond Sir Ector. Elrond was like a father to Aragorn, and he grew up in Rivendell. Does that make Elladan and Elrohir Bedevere and Kay?

Well, every analogy has to stop working at some point. I think I've reached it here.

[Gordis]

Well, I may easily be mistaken here, as my recollection of the Arthurian Cycle as such is vague. I remember mostly Mary Stewart's Merlin books, that I loved, while the Mists of Avalon left me indifferent.

[Butterbeer]

crystal cave, hollow hills etc?

yeah i liked them :

forgive me durinsbane2244 but i feel this is stretching things a bit, sorry! Always good for debate though so fair play!

PS Nurv: Uther died young in Numeroean terms but no so (i think) in dark-ages life-spans - i'm not sure that adds up: but i too am not completely sure of myself here

BB

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

arhturian themes, in the lord of the rings, the title says it all, but wait, there's more, i have thought of a few:

-Aragorn as King Arhtur, Arhtur being "ill-begotten", Aragorn being a ranger for so long and not being "kingly".

-Gandalf as Merlin, Merlin being advisor to the king and facing evils, than leaving Arthur to do his own work, Gandalf being advisor and helper to Aragorn, (and others before him, which Merlin did also), than leaving him at Moria, than showing up again,(Merlin's many travels), and than showing up at the crucial moment, and than leaving him for good, like Merlin.

-The Council of Elrond was the Round Table of the LotR, meeting place and where they made they're decisions, selecting who would go on the ultimate quest, and it was a circle!

-The Quest itself, being the counterpart to the quest for the Holy Grail, if anyone has read the Holy Grail quest,(which I;m sure you have), you will see that not all of them made it, and that some were killed or turned back, or wwent to other quests, which happens it the LotR! Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn go to the help of Merry and Pippen, which in turn leads to the salvation of both Rohan and Gondor, also freeing the dead guys, which could be seen as the healing of the Maimed King,< again for those of you who've read it, Boromir is slain, and only the chosen three, Sam, Frodo, and yes, Smeagol, are granted entry to the Black Land and Mount Doom, liiiike, Galahad, Bors, and Percival, they all eventually end up in Valinor, except for Smeagol, who goes INTO the fire of Mount Doom, now, Bors and Percival ended up priests, but Galahad died by again going INTO the Mystery of the Grail.

-This one isn't as big, but Mordred, pretty much the untimate evil and downfall of Arthur, starts with MOR, liiiike, MORdor, and MORgoth, so evil+MOR.

WOW! I feel great! PLEASE KEEP THIS ONE GOING!!!

Hey DB,

I have to disagree. I think there are some similarities, but those similarities are general--that is, both the Arthurian stories (and which tradition are you going with? The Alliterative Arthur? Malory? SGGK? CHretien? Or something more modern: Stewart, Zimmer Bradley, etc) and LoTR draw on the same epic and literary traditions rather than Arthurian material being a direct source or inspiration for Tolkien.

Aragorn=Arthur: No, I don't think so. Both draw on much older traditions about kings being "ill-begotten" or of uncertain birth or who wander until they come into their own. I think your comparison here is too generalized.

Gandalf=Merlin--here too I think you're being too general. We kind of have to forget what Gandalf was in order to make this work. And equating journeys to Gandalf's fall and death in Moria seems a stretch to me.

CoE=Round Table--here too. The RT was a fellowship of 100 of the best knights of the realm all deemed to be equal, just one more equal than others. The CoE was both more and less than that. Everyone, save perhaps Gandalf, came to Elrond's for wisdom, not for eating and drinking and celebration. Sitting in a circle at such a gathering was not uncommon, but I'm not sure that that's enough to equate them. After all, the CoE met once, the RT often.

The Quests-many, many quests in literature, I'm not sure we can simply say that the Holy Grail and Ring quests are the same here, or similar other than that both are "quests" and both have characters die.

The "mor" analogy is interesting, but as a philolgist I have to protest. The "mor" of Mordred is our modern "more", i. e. his name is More Dread: i.e. very scary dude. The "mor" in Tolkien as in "moria" and "mordor" and "morgoth" and "morannon" and so on means if memory serves "black, dark." Unrelated.

Camelot=Gondor--Rome was a famous place too with kings over wide lands; Jerusalem.....another city set on the hills with kings who ruled over wide lands....

the foretelling of a coming king....the Bible, Charlemagne romances and so on

the story of a king who must save his kingdom from incoming hoards of the enemy....Alfred the Great, for example, among others in literature and history.

Sorry to be a wet blanket, again. I'm sure Gordis and CS will have something to say, but I think that what analogies there are between Arthurian stories and LoTR are because they are drawing on and influenced by the same epic traditions of classical and medieval literature rather than any direct inspiritation. After all, Tolkien started writing his "mythology for England" because England had no mythology, Arthur being the mythology of the Britains.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

I'm sure Gordis and CS will have something to say, but I think that what analogies there are between Arthurian stories and LoTR are because they are drawing on and influenced by the same epic traditions of classical and medieval literature rather than any direct inspiritation.

No, I have nothing to add. For once I agree completely with Forkbeard who shows much greater expertise in the matter than I can ever claim.

[durinsbane2244]

Oh fine, you're all right, but my point wasn't to say that it was based on Arhtur, just to say that there are similarities, as there are with all those other things. I know that they are general, but they're all at least a bit right.

Whoever asked: While I enjoy all literature on Arthur, I base my FACT(as one of the few who believe he was real) on the trilogy by Rosemary Sutcliff, not only because they're the best I've read, but even the public library places it in NON-FICTION!!

Also, just thought of this now, someone said Gandalf betrayed by his Vivianne, I think that Saruman could be used as his Vivianne/Nimue(I go with Nimue). He trusted him, told him what he knew, and than Saruman betrayed him and imprisoned him! Though, he returned, and Merlin never actually died,
but Gandalf died, but he returned, which could symbolize Christ, but that's for another thread, such as my long-lost Christian Themes in the Lord of the Rings Thread!!(cool music)!! Tolkien himself being a devout Catholic.

Hmmmmmm, if anyone out there could comment on something in a good way, there were some you guys left alon, and I hope that means you have no problem with them!

This may sound strange as well,and I'm not saying this all the way, but Aragorn, again vague and general, could be Galadriel. He was pretty much promised to Arwen and than ALMOST (<emphasis on that), went with Eowyn.
But in the end went with Arwen, and Galadriel became a nun, both doing something good. . . . .

P.S. ^That up there was a desperate pleading hint to go to my thread!

[Spock]

Originally Posted by gordis

I remember mostly Mary Stewart's Merlin books, that I loved, while the Mists of Avalon left me indifferent.

I just finished rereading that book and enjoyed it again. It's a different perspective of the tale and does have some mystical explanations that fit, IMO.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

, I base my FACT(as one of the few who believe he was real) on the trilogy by Rosemary Sutcliff, not only because they're the best I've read, but even the public library places it in NON-FICTION!!
!

I believe and to the point that I read everything on the subject over a four year period and then planned and went to England for a three week quest of sites IMO that were important. I'd had my verificaiton and psychic experiences which all left me quite satisfied.

[durinsbane2244]

lucky fool!!!!! I wanna go to england!!!!!!!!

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by durinsbane2244

Oh fine, you're all right, but my point wasn't to say that it was based on Arhtur, just to say that there are similarities, as there are with all those other things. I know that they are general, but they're all at least a bit right.

Whoever asked: While I enjoy all literature on Arthur, I base my FACT(as one of the few who believe he was real) on the trilogy by Rosemary Sutcliff, not only because they're the best I've read, but even the public library places it in NON-FICTION!!

Also, just thought of this now, someone said Gandalf betrayed by his Vivianne, I think that Saruman could be used as his Vivianne/Nimue(I go with Nimue). He trusted him, told him what he knew, and than Saruman betrayed him and imprisoned him! Though, he returned, and Merlin never actually died,
but Gandalf died, but he returned, which could symbolize Christ, but that's for another thread, such as my long-lost Christian Themes in the Lord of the Rings Thread!!(cool music)!! Tolkien himself being a devout Catholic.

Hmmmmmm, if anyone out there could comment on something in a good way, there were some you guys left alon, and I hope that means you have no problem with them!

This may sound strange as well,and I'm not saying this all the way, but Aragorn, again vague and general, could be Galadriel. He was pretty much promised to Arwen and than ALMOST (<emphasis on that), went with Eowyn.
But in the end went with Arwen, and Galadriel became a nun, both doing something good. . . . .

P.S. ^That up there was a desperate pleading hint to go to my thread!

Well, I didn't mean to rain on the parade. Yes, there are similarities, and y ou're quite right that listing those similarities might be very useful indeed.