LoTR Discussion Project: Bk II Chap. 3: The Ring Goes South

[Forkbeard]

This chapter is for me one of the most interesting of the book. It captures my attention in the same way that The Old Forest does in Book I, hints at so much more in the background that in the end is left untouched and unexplained. This is one of the characteristics that keeps me coming back to LoTR.

Chapter Summary

The chapter opens later the same day of the Council. The hobbits are gathered together in Bilbo's room discussing what to do next. Gandalf stops by the window and joins in the talk. Gandalf reveals that messengers have been sent out to discover any news of the Enemy's movements, particularly any news of the Nine Ringwraiths and that when the time does come to depart, he will go with Frodo.

The days slip by. The Council of Elrond was on Oct. 25. The days of December fly quickly by before the messengers begin to return. The lands seemed empty and all appears quiet. The only traces of the 9 that could be found were 8 dead horses and 1 torn black cloak.

Elrond then gives tought to forming the Fellowship. He has chosen the number of the company to be nine, for secrecy and to match the 9 Riders. Frodo and Sam were of course chosen at the Council. Gandalf was to go. The remainder were to represent the Free Peoples of Middle Earth: Gimli son of Gloin for the Dwarves, Legolas of the Silvan Elves for the Elves, Aragorn son of Arathorn for Men, and Boromir, Denethor's son of Gondor. There is some debate about the remaing two spots. Merry and Pippin both insist on going; Elrond thinks it best that they not go. Gandalf suggests that trusting to love and friendship would be best; that not even sending Glorfindel would help achieve the aim any better. No command is laid on the Company; none is compelled to go further than they wish or fortune allows. And so the tale of the Nine Walkers is complete and preparations for departure are made.

The Sword of Elendil is reforged, and on its blade are carved Aragorn's device, and many runes. Aragorn renamed the sword Anduril, Flame of the West. The hobbits talked and heard many stories such as the full tale of Berien and Luthien and the taking of the Great Jewel. Bilbo one morning takes Frodo aside and gives him Sting and his mithril coat of mail made by the Dwarves.

Finally, on the evening of 25 December, the Company is to depart. Boromir sounds his horn, Bill the Pony is packed, and Sam complains of having no rope. Elrond lays a charge only on Frodo: not to cast away the Ring nor deliver it to any servent of the Enemy, nor let any handle it or see save members of the Company and only that at great need. He reiterates that the others are free companions who may tarry, or return, or go home, or turn aside as chance allows. (There is an exchange of proverbs between Elrond and Gimli--not central to the story, but always attracts my attention.)

The Company leaves Rivendell and march by night for the next fourteen days without much incident. On Januray 8, the Company reaches Hollin, in the Second Age a part of Eregion, a land once lived in by the Elves. Frodo notes on more than one occasion the presence of a road. Here they plan to take an extra to rest. But Aragorn notes that everything is quiet. Later that day as the other rest, Aragorn and Sam stand watch. The observe a large flock of birds fly over Hollin, a large section of which breaks off and flies directly over them. Aragorn raises the alarm, the fire is put out, and the decision is made to move on that night, rather than rest for a day.

That night, Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn sense something pass overhead. Frodo shivers and sees the stars momentarily go blank. Gandalf senses it pass over.

At this point, Frodo hears part of a debate between Aragorn and Gandalf about their road, a debate apparently already well-hashed. Gandalf expresses concern that the Redhorn Gate, the pass over Caradhras in the Misty Mountains for which they are currently making, will be watched as well as concern about the weather. It is decided that as dangerous as it might be, it is the best road.

As they read the bottom of the mountain, it begins to snow. They gather wood and climb upwards, the wind and snow coming down harder. Eventually they are completely stopped on the mountain by the wind and snow and attempt to take what shelter they can under a jutting rock face. There were sounds of shrill voices in the wind, and howls of laughter; stones began to fall from the mountain side. They remain standing there for the night as the snow piles deeper. They start a fire, and need Gandalf's magic to do so. They burn all their wood in the cold. In the morning, Boromir and Aragorn burrow a path through the snow back down; Legolas is able to walk on top of the piled snow and walks down the mountain. Boromir and Aragorn return and carry the hobbits down to where the snow is lessened. They regroup and descend the mountain, noticing that the birds are once again flying and apparently searching. They stumble "wearily down the slope. Caradhras had defeated them."

Discussion Points

1) Why nine? What need to match the number of Ringwraiths?

2) Why does Bilbo want Frodo to keep his mail shirt a secret?

3) Who or What caused the snow storm?

4) Who or What was the shadow Frodo saw overhead?

5) Who sent the birds?

6) Why would Gloin, Gimli, Legolas, Boromir etc hang around for 2 months?

7) There are several points of foreshadowing in this chapter as well: how many can we list?

8) What does this chapter tell us about the key characters? Especially the less obvious ones such as Boromir or Gimli?

9) Why does Elrond counsel Boromir not to blow his horn again until he is on the borders of his own land?

10) While in Rivendell, Frodo is looking out his window at night and sees a red burning star on the horizon. What does this signify?

11) Why does Elrond specifically have misgivings about Pippin?

12) Tolkien takes care to mention specific things from the past in this chapter, but explains none of them: Beren and Luthien, Eregion, and Moria (though the reader will learn about Moria soon enough)--why doesn't he fill out this information at least somewhat?

[Forkbeard]

Other Issues

1) Note that the structure here is similar to Book I: I.1 has a "party" and many meetings and introduces us to the characters. I.2 is a "council" between Gandalf and Frodo that tells us a lot about the Ring I.3 the Ring is on the move through the Shire, the nearly disastrous hike through the woods, the meeting Riders and Gildor. II.1 is a formal dinner with many meetings and introduction of some new characters and rediscovering old ones in new guise II.2 is a council at which mostly Gandalf speaks and we learn yet more about the Ring II.3 is described above. There are of course differences, but enough similaries to make a comparison.

2) The date of the departure is Dec. 25, in our calendar Christmas Day, the day of Incarnation. An appropriate day for beginnings, and for beginnings of adventures that complete cycles of history.

3) There is also some similarity between here and The Hobbit that most readers will have noted. On leaving Rivendell in The Hobbit, on crossing the Misty Mtns encounter a storm, stone giants throwing boulders etc, causing them to take cover, which eventually leads them to going underground.

4) A point that need not detain us but I find interesting in my weird way: Oct 25 is the date of the Council of Elrond, it also happens in the church calendar to be the date of Sts. Crispis and Crispian, which has not connection to LoTR other than to say that its a great scene in my favorite play, Henry V.

Jan 8, the day they enter Hollin is also the feast day of Frodobert, a 7th century monk, who other than the similiarity in name, has nothing to do with LoTR.

5) the decoration and runes on Aragorn's sword always remind me of Beowulf, where the sword Beowulf uses is said to bound with runes and to have the story of the rebellion of the giants in Genesis 6 carved on its hilt.

6) Tolkien, as indicated above, refers to several things in the chapter that hearken back to the past, another feature of epic literature that Tolkien imitates. As indicated at the top, it is that fascination with the past behind the story that keeps me returning to LoTR (and Beowulf, and other tales), trying to find clues to what it all means

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Okay I'll start off.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Gandalf was to go.

Whan Elrond says that this will be Gandalfs last task (or something along those lines) this hints at Gandalf being a nobler spirit and that he to will leave Middle-Earth.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

There is some debate about the remaing two spots. Merry and Pippin both insist on going; Elrond thinks it best that they not go. Gandalf suggests that trusting to love and friendship would be best; that not even sending Glorfindel would help achieve the aim any better.

I think that here there is a link to the Hobbit. Note that both Elrond and Thorin were loath to let a/some Hobbit's on a quest they deemed of he utmost importancy. Thorin did not initially want Bilbo to go on the Quest of Erebor and Elrond wasn't to keen on letting Merry and Pippin depart with the Fellowship.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Elrond lays a charge only on Frodo: not to cast away the Ring nor deliver it to any servent of the Enemy, nor let any handle it or see save members of the Company and only that at great need. He reiterates that the others are free companions who may tarry, or return, or go home, or turn aside as chance allows. (There is an exchange of proverbs between Elrond and Gimli--not central to the story, but always attracts my attention.)

I also love these proverbs. This shows Gimli's and indeed Dwarves hardiness and will to not aboandon any task and indeed this is one of the things Aule most wanted out of his creations.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

1) Why nine? What need to match the number of Ringwraiths?

I think this was more of a psycological thing than anything else. Some of the Fellowship (in this case I feel Boromir would be one of these) would feel down if the Nazgûl out numbered them. But also there hope was in secrecy not war, so to big a number would swiftly alert Saruman and Sauron.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

2) Why does Bilbo want Frodo to keep his mail shirt a secret?

I feel there are two reason's here. One, Frodo didn't think it would look right so Bilbo said wear it under your normal clothes. Two, if the Fellowship knew Frodo had mithril perhaps their protection of him would slacken slightly.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

3) Who or What caused the snow storm?

Just ask Gimli . It was cruel Caradhras.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

4) Who or What was the shadow Frodo saw overhead?

I think that it was a Nazgûl, just as I think it was near Parth Galen. It made Gandalf feel uneasy and Frodo had had expierence of it before.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

5) Who sent the birds?

As seen as they wer crebain from Dunland, near Isenguard, I'd say Saruman.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

6) Why would Gloin, Gimli, Legolas, Boromir etc hang around for 2 months?

For Legolas this was his near kin, so I think that answers it for him. Gloin and Gimli had knowledge of a quest and wanted to make sure the Dwarves were part of it. Boromir, his future King was here and knowing that Aragorn was going to Minas Tirith, hr thought it made sense to return with him.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

8) What does this chapter tell us about the key characters? Especially the less obvious ones such as Boromir or Gimli?

With Gimli I feeel it shows his hardiness and dwarven strength (not wanting to abandon the quest) and for Boromir his war-likeness. This is portrayed when he replys to elrond after blowing his horn.
"I will not go forth as a thief in the night."

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

9) Why does Elrond counsel Boromir not to blow his horn again until he is on the borders of his own land?

The quests utmost importance could be ruined by a blow of a horn. Alert a large number of orcs and the Fellowship could be dead within moments.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

10) While in Rivendell, Frodo is looking out his window at night and sees a red burning star on the horizon. What does this signify?

I think this is the star of Earendil and is another link between LotR and the Sil.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

11) Why does Elrond specifically have misgivings about Pippin?

His fool-of-a-Tookisness and his foresight that The Shire will be the worse for wear after the Quest is compete or not Completed and one of strength should be sent to support it.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

12) Tolkien takes care to mention specific things from the past in this chapter, but explains none of them: Beren and Luthien, Eregion, and Moria (though the reader will learn about Moria soon enough)--why doesn't he fill out this information at least somewhat?

It would take to long to have all this in there and Beren and Luthies is in the Sil as the history od Eregion.

[Beren3000]

First of all, thank you Forkbeard for this great intro and the fun facts about the dates
Here are my opinions:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

1) Why nine? What need to match the number of Ringwraiths?

I guess it's just symbolism. Elrond wanted them to be as "counterparts" of the Nazgul. It's almost like telling Sauron: "so you've got your nine fearsome servants? we've got our nine as well." See what I mean?

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

2) Why does Bilbo want Frodo to keep his mail shirt a secret?

Because it could have caused contentions among the Fellowship as to who would get the shirt. Remember that they had Gimli along, one who knew the true value of mithril better than any other. Also (IIRC)this happened after the episode with the Ring where Bilbo is tempted to snatch it from Frodo. So Bilbo would be suspicious of that kind of behavior from the Fellowship members. (BTW, it's never called a Fellowship except once or twice, it's always referred to as the Company of the Ring. Why is the title then the FOTR?)

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

9) Why does Elrond counsel Boromir not to blow his horn again until he is on the borders of his own land?

This could be one of the elements of foreshadowing you're looking for. Elrond somehow knew that Boromir would be in grave danger on Parth Galen and blow his horn for help, etc...

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

10) While in Rivendell, Frodo is looking out his window at night and sees a red burning star on the horizon. What does this signify?

TD beat me to it. I always thought of that star as Earendil. Which is only fitting: the Valar are giving HOPE to the Ringbearer at the start of his quest.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

12) Tolkien takes care to mention specific things from the past in this chapter, but explains none of them: Beren and Luthien, Eregion, and Moria (though the reader will learn about Moria soon enough)--why doesn't he fill out this information at least somewhat?

At the time when he wrote LOTR, Tolkien thought that the Sil. would never be published so maybe he considered these references as private jokes for his own amusement, or as a way to link his beloved work to LOTR so as to enjoy his creation more profoundly.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

This is a part that made me think.

Only Elrond fully understood the importance of this moment.

I would have thought that Gandalf at least would have fully understood the momet as he was sent to Middle Earth to aid the War against Sauron.

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Other Issues

Jan 8, the day they enter Hollin is also the feast day of Frodobert, a 7th century monk, who other than the similiarity in name, has nothing to do with LoTR.

Haha...January 8th is also the birthday of Elvis Presley, and myself.
Sorry...lol

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

This is a part that made me think.


I would have thought that Gandalf at least would have fully understood the momet as he was sent to Middle Earth to aid the War against Sauron.

I actually believe that Tolkien did nopt fuly understand Gandalf at this point...or his connection to Valinor and the maia, Olorin.
Gandalf was still being developed from the mere conjuror of the Hobbit, into the deep and wise character he would become.

[Finrod Felagund]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

10) While in Rivendell, Frodo is looking out his window at night and sees a red burning star on the horizon. What does this signify?

I also believe that this is Earendil...the symbolism is perfect. In fact Frodo and sam talk about it later, how "the story is continuing even now..." when they use the Phial of Galadriel, which comtains the light of Earendil, which is the Silmaril of Feanor, taken by Beren and Luthien from Morgoth's crown.

It is a symbol of hope...If Beren and uthien could recover a silmaril, and Earendil come all the way through the shadowy seas to Valinor, there is hope for Frodo.

[Rían]

Oh, I always thought that the red star was some symbol of Mordor - I need to re-read that section ...

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I thought that to at first.

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

Nice Intro Forkbeard

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

1) Why nine? What need to match the number of Ringwraiths?

I believe this was symbolic, "You have your nine, we have ours, but ours are better" sort of thing

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

2) Why does Bilbo want Frodo to keep his mail shirt a secret?

i don't know

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

3) Who or What caused the snow storm?

Could be saruman, or maybe sauron, both could, theoretically, be powerfull enough

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

4) Who or What was the shadow Frodo saw overhead?

Nazgul? some other demon of sauron's?

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

5) Who sent the birds?

saruman

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

6) Why would Gloin, Gimli, Legolas, Boromir etc hang around for 2 months?

no idea, perhaps they were counselled to, and tolkien just didn't write it down

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

7) There are several points of foreshadowing in this chapter as well: how many can we list?

none

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

8) What does this chapter tell us about the key characters? Especially the less obvious ones such as Boromir or Gimli?

not much

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

9) Why does Elrond counsel Boromir not to blow his horn again until he is on the borders of his own land?

cause he has a headache seriously: secrecy, not to let sauron know what is happenin

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

10) While in Rivendell, Frodo is looking out his window at night and sees a red burning star on the horizon. What does this signify?

valar 'endorsing' the quest of the fellowship, p'raps

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

11) Why does Elrond specifically have misgivings about Pippin?

cause he is a 'tom-fool of a took'

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

12) Tolkien takes care to mention specific things from the past in this chapter, but explains none of them: Beren and Luthien, Eregion, and Moria (though the reader will learn about Moria soon enough)--why doesn't he fill out this information at least somewhat?

private joke maybe, he thought silmarillion would'ne be published, and so he would know what it meant, we would'ne

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

The days slip by. The Council of Elrond was on Oct. 25. The days of December fly quickly by before the messengers begin to return. The lands seemed empty and all appears quiet.

Seems Elrond tried to delay the quest as long as he could, till he didn't get an approval of the decision and the last instructions from his royal mother-in-law. I see no other point, than that, to send scouts west and north to look for the enemies if the Fellowship was planning to go East.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Elrond then gives tought to forming the Fellowship. He has chosen the number of the company to be nine, for secrecy and to match the 9 Riders. Frodo and Sam were of course chosen at the Council. Gandalf was to go.

From the beginning Gandalf planned to stay behind and, as it happens with Bilbo and Trotter, he again tried to send the Hobbits alone on the dangerous task, but Elrond interferred, since "in this matter Elrond has much to say. And Gandalf , even if he told to the exited hobbits "Do not count on anything yet" reluctantly had to agree on going with the Hobbits.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

No command is laid on the Company; none is compelled to go further than they wish or fortune allows.

Once again I'm pointing at the fact that the burden to deliver and destroy the Ring in the Mount of the Doom was laid on the hobbits alone. Even Aragorn was free from any obligations considering the destruction of the ring.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

He reiterates that the others are free companions who may tarry, or return, or go home, or turn aside as chance allows. (There is an exchange of proverbs between Elrond and Gimli--not central to the story, but always attracts my attention.)[B]

For me the whole Elrond's reiteration sounds as suspicious as it was for Gimli. If the destruction of the Ring was so imperative, why not to stress the importance of their help in the deliverance, instead of an encouragement to abandon the quest "as chance allows"?
“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens”-says Gimli to Elrond. In translation his words is:“ I do not believe it’s your true plans about the Fellowship”

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

That night, Frodo, Gandalf, and Aragorn sense something pass overhead. Frodo shivers and sees the stars momentarily go blank. Gandalf senses it pass over.

I guess it was Sauron's scout-Nazgul using "the wings" for the better observation , even if he can't see a thing.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

Gandalf expresses concern that the Redhorn Gate, the pass over Caradhras in the Misty Mountains for which they are currently making, will be watched as well as concern about the weather.

Although his concerns very well founded, it was not his true intention. He knew about the danger of the Redhorn Gate from the start and planned another route. This way he unpesuasively tried to turn the Fellowship to move in his direction, and when it didn't work out he "let them have it all".

[Wayfarer]

2) Why does Bilbo want Frodo to keep his mail shirt a secret?

To avoid drawing attention to himself, probably.

3) Who or What caused the snow storm?

Given the references that are made, I have always thought that Caradhras itself was home to some manner of evil spirit that Sauron had stirred up against the fellowship.

6) Why would Gloin, Gimli, Legolas, Boromir etc hang around for 2 months?

Now there's a statement made by somebody who's never travelled by foot. They stayed two months because getting there in the first place was a hard journey, and getting back would be just as bad in any case. You've got to remember that Legolas had to travel some 300 miles to get from Rivendell to his father's halls. And his place was the closest of all of them. Run through your mind what it would be like to make a thousand mile journey on foot or horseback. When you've got a trip like that you don't make it without a good reason, and you usually stay for months (if not years) once you get to your destination.

11) Why does Elrond specifically have misgivings about Pippin?

As has been pointed out, Pippin was a fool. His rashness nearly defeated the fellowship on at least two occassions, even if it all turned out in the end.

12) Tolkien takes care to mention specific things from the past in this chapter, but explains none of them: Beren and Luthien, Eregion, and Moria (though the reader will learn about Moria soon enough)--why doesn't he fill out this information at least somewhat?

It was most certainly not as a joke, private or otherwise. The consistant reality of Middle Earth as set forth in LOTR is based in the fact that the story has strong roots. It is based in and driven by events that have happened in the world already, and the existence of things which are important to the quest but not explicitly stated is what sets Tolkien above authors who include nothing apart from the essential bones of the story.

For me the whole Elrond's reiteration sounds as suspicious as it was for Gimli. If the destruction of the Ring was so imperative, why not to stress the importance of their help in the deliverance, instead of an encouragement to abandon the quest "as chance allows"?
“Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens”-says Gimli to Elrond. In translation his words is:“ I do not believe it’s your true plans about the Fellowship”

Elrond tells Gimli: 'One should not vow to walk in darkness, who has not seen nightfall.'

Why did Elrond say this? Well, one interesting piece of information that most people miss is that Elrond and Elros were raised by Maedhros after Elendil and Elwing left middle earth. Elrond got a good first-hand look at how a foolishly sworn oath destroyed some of the most noble elves ever to walk in Middle Earth. In fact, he may have recieved this same advice when he was young, from the Sons of Feanor who had sworn an oath they wished they could go back on.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Why did Elrond say this? Well, one interesting piece of information that most people miss is that Elrond and Elros were raised by Maedhros after Elendil and Elwing left middle earth. Elrond got a good first-hand look at how a foolishly sworn oath destroyed some of the most noble elves ever to walk in Middle Earth. In fact, he may have recieved this same advice when he was young, from the Sons of Feanor who had sworn an oath they wished they could go back on.

I agree with all of this apart from one bit. It was Eärendil not Elendil

[Rían]

Oh, all those "E" names! The only thing worse is all those "F" names - Finwe, Feanor, Fingolfin, Finarfin, Finrod, Fingon, Finduilas, Felagund, *trails off* ....

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I'm sure I've heard you say that before!

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

7) There are several points of foreshadowing in this chapter as well: how many can we list?

You listed one yourself:

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

9) Why does Elrond counsel Boromir not to blow his horn again until he is on the borders of his own land?

He was coming over all Mystic Meg thinking about Boromir's horn (oo-er). Of course, we don't know it at the time; I wonder if this is a detail that Tolkien inserted after he'd written the Parth Galen scene?

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

8) What does this chapter tell us about the key characters? Especially the less obvious ones such as Boromir or Gimli?

It's pretty clear that both of these two are strong characters with their own ideas about things. For the reader, the story just got more exotic. We start to get an insight into these other cultures from the inside. Since we head for Caradhras, dwarven culture is to the fore, from the "jaw-cracker" language to the superstition, reverence and awe of the mountains.

My impression from the book has always been that it was the mountain itself that defeated them; isn't there some line about there being spirits that have no allegiance to anyone but are just spiteful to everyone out of badness? Tolkien again uses the ambiguous "as if" voice, this time in referring to Caradhras' acknowledging their defeat by stopping the storm, so we don't know for sure, but I reckon it's supposed to be an actual ill will.

However, I think this device very nicely illustrates how Tolkien gets us inside the mindset of a superstition.

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

12) Tolkien takes care to mention specific things from the past in this chapter, but explains none of them: Beren and Luthien, Eregion, and Moria (though the reader will learn about Moria soon enough)--why doesn't he fill out this information at least somewhat?

Isn't the book long enough already??

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Isn't the book long enough already??

NO!

[Nurvingiel]

I really meant to join in the discussion on this chapter, because the summary was great! Not having the books with me seems to have sapped my LOTR participation though...

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Forkbeard

NO!

Heh!

Well, to provide a serious answer, I can think of a number of reasons:

1) seriously, to keep it a sensible length within the 6-book format;
2) to be consistent with the device of providing hints and references to the back-story;
3) to get to the action faster, since we've just had two chapters of talk;
4) (guessing) because when he wrote it, he hadn't thought of much of that part of the back-story.