Free will vs. destiny

[Shelob's Hubby]

When Tolkien wrote LOTR do you guys think that he was leaning more toward free will as the determining factor of the plot of the story or do you think that he tried to write it more as that the characters were fated to do what they did?
In my opinion he tried to do both, but I would like to hear other people's opinions.

[Beren3000]

I agree with you. I think it was a bit of both. Although the characters' will affects their lives and their choices seem to decide the course of action, there are a million hints that all of their actions are a part of a greater design, the design of the "powers that are at work". I think this is one of the important themes in LOTR.

P.S. Welcome to the Moot, Shelob's Hubby

[brownjenkins]

i think it's largely 'fate'... but being a plan only understood in part by anyone except eru, it might as well be free will

there is little doubt that tolkien intended 'free will' to be a part of the picture... but ran into the age-old problem of reconciling an all-knowing creator with the ability of his creations to act beyond an all-knowing creator

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by Beren3000

Although the characters' will affects their lives and their choices seem to decide the course of action, there are a million hints that all of their actions are a part of a greater design, the design of the "powers that are at work".

You are saying that in spite of of any course of action the outcome will be as it planned by the "great design". But it turns everyone into a sensless chess-pieces.How boring! Why to struggle making decisions if the end will by just the same?
I see the "powers at work" as the powers, which allowed you a choice in SPITE of the Great Design.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

I think it was both, but maybe more fate. I think Tolkien may have intended fate to be changeable, so something should happen but it doesn't have to.

Welcome to the Moot Shelob's Hubby

[Attalus]

I think that Eru was actively nudging things in the Free Peoples' favor, but none of it would have helped if they hadn't siezed their chances. Perhaps Eru or the Ring made Gollum grab the Ring from Frodo in the Sammath Naur, but it wouldn't have helped a bit if Frodo hadn't hauled it over all those weary miles. God helps those who help themselves. Consider Denethor as the contrary example, giving in to despair.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Olmer

You are saying that in spite of of any course of action the outcome will be as it planned by the "great design". But it turns everyone into a sensless chess-pieces.How boring! Why to struggle making decisions if the end will by just the same?

something planned is only boring if you know the outcome... or it's really badly planned

[Beren3000]

Originally Posted by Olmer

You are saying that in spite of of any course of action the outcome will be as it planned by the "great design". But it turns everyone into a sensless chess-pieces.How boring! Why to struggle making decisions if the end will by just the same?
I see the "powers at work" as the powers, which allowed you a choice in SPITE of the Great Design.

As b/jenkins said, we're falling into an age-old debate here. How is free will consistent with God's knowing everything beforehand. Well, I see it this way:
We are completely free-willed in every choice we make (otherwise, if people had no say in their lives, how can you label anyone as evil or sinful?), but God (being all-powerful) has the power to foresee the future, foresee our future choices NOT predetermine them. So that's how the choices can fit in with a greater design. These people, Frodo and Co. were "good" people so that the paths they CHOSE to take were conform with Eru's will and that's why they triumphed at the end. Anyway, just MHO.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

But do you think that they had the power to do something that was not planned for them by Eru.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

But do you think that they had the power to do something that was not planned for them by Eru.

Is there something that could happen and wasn't polanned by Eru? No, not by this point of view. (Am I right Beren?)

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Olmer

You are saying that in spite of of any course of action the outcome will be as it planned by the "great design". But it turns everyone into a sensless chess-pieces.How boring! Why to struggle making decisions if the end will by just the same?
I see the "powers at work" as the powers, which allowed you a choice in SPITE of the Great Design.

It wouldn't be so much a senseless chess game it would be more like a film you have already seen. Eru, I think, is the only being who knows the outcome of all. Its not so pointless and boring, or is the film Lord of the Rings boring the second time you watch it!? See. Yet thats only one idea. Perhaps Eru only knows specific moments for absolute certainty, i.e. the beggining and the end. Everything else while it is seen in a vision of the Valar is not defined. It is possible that the vision can be altered and so fate can be changed because "fate" has not happened yet, save in an untangible dream. It says repetedly that of all the Vala Mandos knows more of the fate of arda than any other within it. So, I feel, Proffesor Tolkien was attempting at a world and a religion striving to be alike to the Norse mythology. However being a man bound by the faith of Catholicism he reverted in many ways to Christinity and Catholicism. More of the free will and multiple god aspect being derived from Norse, and more of the fate and all powerfull Eru comming from Christianity.

[Shelob's Hubby]

I think that Eru lays out his plans for the world and then uses his helpers to nudge events to match his plans. For example: he sent Gandalf (indirectly) to help with the problem in Middle Earth. Gandalf then got Frodo to take the one ring and bring it to Rivendell. The council then debated and decided (or got Frodo to decide) that Frodo should go and destroy the ring. Even though Frodo had a choice about whether to carry our his mission or not. Eru indirectly influenced events that would help Frodo to reach the decicion that Eru wanted.

If any of you understand what I'm saying and could describe it better, please do. I'm not the best with words.

[Halbarad of the Dunedain]

One problem with that theory, Eru didn't send Gandalf, Manwe at the suggestion of Varda did. He was sent as one of the five Istari to battle the force of the one ring.

[Forkbeard]

Originally Posted by Shelob's Hubby

When Tolkien wrote LOTR do you guys think that he was leaning more toward free will as the determining factor of the plot of the story or do you think that he tried to write it more as that the characters were fated to do what they did?
In my opinion he tried to do both, but I would like to hear other people's opinions.

I see that this garnered a number of posts, but I think it isn't an accurate question. I don't think there is any "fate" in LoTR at all. That is, usually when we talk about fate we mean that something is predetermined. In my view the only thing that was predetermined by Eru (and by predetermined, I think that Eru gave thought to this problem and made sure his thought was accomplished, not that this was part of the original music of creation) was that Sauron would not again rule Middle Earth and so that the Ring would be destroyed. I don't see Tolkien as advocating that then Eru determined the course of events or actors. That Eru was at work ensuring his goal was accomplished is true, but that isn't what we mean by fate or even predetermination. Thus, I would say that Eru is acting directly in the events of the War of the Ring, but the only thing "predetermined" is that Sauron loses.

Don't know if that's clear or makes sense,

Forkbeard

[Artanis]

It makes a lot of sense to me at least. You express very well my own view of this subject Forkbeard.

[Elanor the Fair]

I agree with you, Forkbeard, although I do not think that the destroying of the Ring was a foregone conclusion. Why else would Gandalf worry about the choices and decisions being made. He would just sit back and let "fate" run its course.

[Beren3000]

Is there something that could happen and wasn't planned by Eru? No, not by this point of view. (Am I right Beren?)

Yep, you've captured some of my point of view. However, I just want to add that PLANNED by Eru doesn't mean that He forces the choices on people. It's the good people's choices that conform with his plan and fulfill it.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

I agree with you, Forkbeard, although I do not think that the destroying of the Ring was a foregone conclusion. Why else would Gandalf worry about the choices and decisions being made. He would just sit back and let "fate" run its course.

Gandalf could not know that the destruction of the Ring was predetermined. He may have hoped so, but he could not be sure. Eru did not reveal his plans to anyone.

[Elanor the Fair]

No, but he would know that something would be predetermined - so why bother worrying if there was no chance of having some control over your own destiny?

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Elanor the Fair

No, but he would know that something would be predetermined - so why bother worrying if there was no chance of having some control over your own destiny?

I'm afraid I don't follow your logic. The only thing Gandalf would be sure of imo, was that the world would end eventually. Nothing more.